License Question

#1

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I have some confusion about the licensing, hopefully someone can set me
straight.

Where the description page says "Since MySQL++ is licensed under the
LGPL, you cannot link it statically to closed-source programs"

My understanding is just the opposite.
That one can link to LGPL programs without the copyleft, GPL licensing,
issues.
So closed source programs can use LGPL, that's like the whole reason for
GPL.

Perhaps I've taken something out of context?

Allan Hardy

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#2

On Tue, Nov 08, 2005 at 07:11:23PM -0500, Hardy, Allan wrote:

Quote:

Where the description page says "Since MySQL++ is licensed under the
LGPL, you cannot link it statically to closed-source programs"

My understanding is just the opposite.
That one can link to LGPL programs without the copyleft, GPL licensing,
issues.
So closed source programs can use LGPL, that's like the whole reason for
GPL.

I'm not a lawyer, so this is not legal advice.

You might be interested in a post I made a while back:

http://lists.mysql.com/plusplus/4675

Remember though, that while mysql++ is licensed under LGPL, it is based
on the mysql C API, and recent versions of that are licensed under
the GPL. So you're still stuck, when it comes to closed source programs.

I'm not a legal expert when it comes to layering LGPL on top of GPL,
but it seems a fuzzy area to me, and would side on the GPL for safety.

If you are writing closed source applications, use Postgresql and its C++
library: libpqxx. Both are licensed under a BSD-style license.

- Chris

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#3

On Tue, Nov 08, 2005 at 09:21:05PM -0500, Hardy, Allan wrote:

Quote:

So why isn't MySQL++ licensed as GPL?

mysql++ wasn't originally written by the MySQL company, and started out as a
cross-database C++ library that happened to implement MySQL first. Early
versions were called "sqlplus". See the user manual for more info on the
history.

Indeed, earlier versions of the MySQL C API were LGPL too. I believe
MySQL changed this around version 4.0.20. You can still get mysql 3.23.x
if license matters in your application.

mysql++ can still be used as a cross-database C++ wrapper, and I'd like to
do that someday, or help with the effort, so there's no reason to change
from LGPL.

It's interesting to note how companies like MySQL and Trolltech (Qt) use
the GPL in a defensive manner, while companies like RedHat (Cygwin/Gnome)
use LGPL.

- Chris

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#4

Chris,

Thanks. IANAL (I am not a lawyer) either, but do hang around them a
bit to much

I assume the MySQL++ author had a reason to pick LGPL over GPL
(despite Stallmans request he use GPL
http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/why-not-lgpl.html)

The reason for LGPL existence is to allow free software to survive in an
unfree market place. At the times when using GPL would lead to the
non-adoption of the work because there are competing alternatives.

It does that by lessening the copyleft, derived work, requirement.

So, again I am still not sure why the MySQL++ author indicates that LGPL
cannot work well with non-open software?

As to the LGPL on top of GPL thing. Normally I would assume that this is
not possible to do. If MySQL was licensed under a normal GPL license
then it would seem that any 'wrapper' would need to be GPL licensed as
well. However MySQL has an exception, called the FOSS Exception, that
allows programs using a set list of FOSS licenses to avoid the GPL
copyleft requirement. I assume that is how MySQL++ gets away with being
LGPL?

Though of course now we have the slippery slope, if MySQL++ as LGPL
allows integration by proprietary products, then we have caused a hole
in the MySQL GPL protection.

So why isn't MySQL++ licensed as GPL?

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#5

Hardy, Allan wrote:

Quote:

Where the description page says "Since MySQL++ is licensed under the
LGPL, you cannot link it statically to closed-source programs"

My understanding is just the opposite.
That one can link to LGPL programs without the copyleft, GPL licensing,
issues.

You're not understanding static linking, then. Static linking makes the
MySQL++ binary code part of your executable. Dynamic linking, by
contrast, keeps the MySQL++ binary code elsewhere, and your code only
links to it when the program runs.

The LGPL provisions basically allow your users to replace parts of
MySQL++ if they want, without affecting your program. They cannot do
this if you give them an executable with MySQL++ statically linked.

There is a workaround: you can also give your users object files for
your program, so they can relink it to MySQL++ themselves. This would
allow you to statically link to MySQL++, but most people find providing
*.o files too odious.

If you want to argue further about this, I'm not interested. See the
FAQs and documentation on gnu.org, and/or consult a lawyer.

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#6

Chris Frey wrote:

Quote:

Remember though, that while mysql++ is licensed under LGPL, it is based
on the mysql C API, and recent versions of that are licensed under
the GPL. So you're still stuck, when it comes to closed source programs.

Yes, but you can purchase a license from MySQL AB which puts it under a
different license. You just need to call them up and work out a
reasonable solution.

If you're selling a product based on MySQL++, it shouldn't be a hardship
to get MySQL database licenses for your product.

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#7

Warren,

Was I arguing?

Putting all the technical details aside, why did you choose LGPL over
GPL?
LGPL clearly exist to make working with proprietary software easier.
You clearly don't want, or care, about that, which is fine.
(That's not a judgment or accusation, just an observation)

I am just curious then what other attributes/advantages are in LGPL that
took you down that path?

The differences of Static over Dynamic linking to LGPL libraries is
interesting.
It seems that Static linking to LGPL libraries offers no advantages over
GPL?
I mean it doesn't meet the objective of working with proprietary
software any better.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Allan

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#8

Quote:

If you're selling a product based on MySQL++, it shouldn't be a
hardship to get MySQL database licenses for your product.

How is that possible?
If I purchase a commercial MySQL license I can produce commercial
applications all day that call MySQL AB interfaces, things covered by
their commercial license.

Except I still cant use MySQL++ because it LGPL and all the other
discussion says that my application will bound to LGPL terms (releasing
object or releasing source).

Is MySQL++ covered by the MySQL AB commercial license?

Allan

-----Original Message-----
From: Warren Young [mailto:mysqlpp (AT) etr-usa (DOT) com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 8:09 AM
To: MySQL++ Mailing List
Subject: Re: License Question

Chris Frey wrote:

Quote:

Remember though, that while mysql++ is licensed under LGPL, it is
based on the mysql C API, and recent versions of that are licensed
under the GPL. So you're still stuck, when it comes to closed source
programs.

Yes, but you can purchase a license from MySQL AB which puts it under a
different license. You just need to call them up and work out a
reasonable solution.

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#9

Hardy, Allan wrote:

Quote:

Putting all the technical details aside, why did you choose LGPL over
GPL?

I am not the original author, and neither is MySQL AB. The original
author chose it, but he is no longer involved with MySQL++. The
original author will not relicense his code, so we are stuck with this
license.

Quote:

It seems that Static linking to LGPL libraries offers no advantages over
GPL?

No. With GPL you have to provide human-readable source code to your
users. If you statically link an LGPL library to your program, you only
have to provide sufficient files to be able to relink the executable;
unless your program is truly weird, that means object files.

Both of these are spelled out in the licenses themselves. Have you read
them lately?

Quote:

I mean it doesn't meet the objective of working with proprietary
software any better.

Why is static linking tied to proprietary applications in your mind?
What's wrong with dynamic linking?

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#10

Warren

I truly appreciate the response.

I am not trying to use you as a replacement for reading the GPL/LGPL
FAQs, etc etc. I've done all that many times. I even attended a
seminar given by FSF lawyers and technical staff. The LGPL license is
frankly a bit of a mess, in their words, and it will go through more
modifications then GPL in the upcoming GPL 3 next wave effort.

My only point is I don't agree that things are 'spelled out' as in
clear, black and white etc.

So your comments are appreciated.

Quote:

No. With GPL you have to provide human-readable source code to your
users. If you statically link an LGPL library to your program, you only

have to provide sufficient files to be able to relink the executable;
unless your program is truly weird, that means object files.

What I meant by no significant advantages is that as you said, providing
the object code and pieces needed to do this is onerous, and while it is
technically/legally a choice its very impractical, right? I mean I
believe that's what I hear you and chris saying?

Quote:

Why is static linking tied to proprietary applications in your mind?
What's wrong with dynamic linking?

I am not sure what I said that went down this path. Heres what I meant:

Proprietary App -> Static Link to LGPL -> has to release object
code/allow for relinking - difficult
Proprietary App -> Dynamic Link to LGPL -> has no obligations since
relinking is not an issue - easy

Allan

-----Original Message-----
From: Warren Young [mailto:mysqlpp (AT) etr-usa (DOT) com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:13 PM
To: MySQL++ Mailing List
Subject: Re: License Question

Hardy, Allan wrote:

Quote:

Putting all the technical details aside, why did you choose LGPL over
GPL?

I am not the original author, and neither is MySQL AB. The original
author chose it, but he is no longer involved with MySQL++. The
original author will not relicense his code, so we are stuck with this
license.

Quote:

It seems that Static linking to LGPL libraries offers no advantages
over GPL?

No. With GPL you have to provide human-readable source code to your
users. If you statically link an LGPL library to your program, you only
have to provide sufficient files to be able to relink the executable;
unless your program is truly weird, that means object files.

Both of these are spelled out in the licenses themselves. Have you read
them lately?

Quote:

I mean it doesn't meet the objective of working with proprietary
software any better.

Why is static linking tied to proprietary applications in your mind?
What's wrong with dynamic linking?

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