pro- foreign key propaganda?

#41

"paul c" <toledobysea (AT) ac (DOT) ooyah> wrote

Quote:

sinister wrote:
...
What do I do if he gets back to me and says---as I'm sure everyone in his
position does---"oh, but my PHP code makes sure everything is done
right"? Not that I don't know what to say, but it would be good to have a
pointer to an essay or webpage that succinctly explains why you're asking
for trouble if you don't encode such relationships in the DB itself.
...

It is usually pointless to argue technical points with ignorants, even if
they are well-meaning that will encourage even more wasteful work on top
of the existing mistakes. The only argument I've ever seen succeed was to
tell management that certain features of the product it had invested in
were being ignored and that they were paying extra to code those features
in-house. That is still a long-shot as most managements are also too lazy
or ignorant to pay attention to non-political issues.

Thanks for your reply.

It's actually just a relatively small DB for a group in a scientific
institute. So very few people involved. I sent the guy an email, and
instead of protesting (I'm informally supervising him), he said he did it
that way because it's awkward to have constraints because he's importing
lots of sloppy data from spreadsheets etc. When I told him he _had_ to have
fk constraints, he yielded w/o complaint. (Then I told him he could deal
with the sloppy data even w/ the fk constraints, in ways which aren't all
that cumbersome.)

One thought did occur to me---why did he think I had all those constraints
in my PostgreSQL table creation code? Hmm...

Cheers

Quote:

By rights, the first argument ought to be that the slightest error in the
in-house code risks integrity for the whole installation but usually who
wins either of these two arguments is a matter of who has more of mgmt's
ear, so in practice it still comes down to politics.

Of course, if you're lucky enough to win either argument over the heads of
the ignorants, some of those will make themselves your enemies in future,
wherever you may go. Having experienced all of the above over many years,
my attitude now would be to just try to get along with them and plan to
get out at the earliest opportunity, with your conscience intact and your
resume untarnished. If it is a localized mundane commercial application,
eg., nothing to do with say, public safety, life's too short for any other
course.

#42

"paul c" <toledobysea (AT) ac (DOT) ooyah> wrote

Quote:

sinister wrote:
...
What do I do if he gets back to me and says---as I'm sure everyone in his
position does---"oh, but my PHP code makes sure everything is done
right"? Not that I don't know what to say, but it would be good to have a
pointer to an essay or webpage that succinctly explains why you're asking
for trouble if you don't encode such relationships in the DB itself.
...

It is usually pointless to argue technical points with ignorants, even if
they are well-meaning that will encourage even more wasteful work on top
of the existing mistakes. The only argument I've ever seen succeed was to
tell management that certain features of the product it had invested in
were being ignored and that they were paying extra to code those features
in-house. That is still a long-shot as most managements are also too lazy
or ignorant to pay attention to non-political issues.

Thanks for your reply.

It's actually just a relatively small DB for a group in a scientific
institute. So very few people involved. I sent the guy an email, and
instead of protesting (I'm informally supervising him), he said he did it
that way because it's awkward to have constraints because he's importing
lots of sloppy data from spreadsheets etc. When I told him he _had_ to have
fk constraints, he yielded w/o complaint. (Then I told him he could deal
with the sloppy data even w/ the fk constraints, in ways which aren't all
that cumbersome.)

One thought did occur to me---why did he think I had all those constraints
in my PostgreSQL table creation code? Hmm...

Cheers

Quote:

By rights, the first argument ought to be that the slightest error in the
in-house code risks integrity for the whole installation but usually who
wins either of these two arguments is a matter of who has more of mgmt's
ear, so in practice it still comes down to politics.

Of course, if you're lucky enough to win either argument over the heads of
the ignorants, some of those will make themselves your enemies in future,
wherever you may go. Having experienced all of the above over many years,
my attitude now would be to just try to get along with them and plan to
get out at the earliest opportunity, with your conscience intact and your
resume untarnished. If it is a localized mundane commercial application,
eg., nothing to do with say, public safety, life's too short for any other
course.

#43

"paul c" <toledobysea (AT) ac (DOT) ooyah> wrote

Quote:

sinister wrote:
...
What do I do if he gets back to me and says---as I'm sure everyone in his
position does---"oh, but my PHP code makes sure everything is done
right"? Not that I don't know what to say, but it would be good to have a
pointer to an essay or webpage that succinctly explains why you're asking
for trouble if you don't encode such relationships in the DB itself.
...

It is usually pointless to argue technical points with ignorants, even if
they are well-meaning that will encourage even more wasteful work on top
of the existing mistakes. The only argument I've ever seen succeed was to
tell management that certain features of the product it had invested in
were being ignored and that they were paying extra to code those features
in-house. That is still a long-shot as most managements are also too lazy
or ignorant to pay attention to non-political issues.

Thanks for your reply.

It's actually just a relatively small DB for a group in a scientific
institute. So very few people involved. I sent the guy an email, and
instead of protesting (I'm informally supervising him), he said he did it
that way because it's awkward to have constraints because he's importing
lots of sloppy data from spreadsheets etc. When I told him he _had_ to have
fk constraints, he yielded w/o complaint. (Then I told him he could deal
with the sloppy data even w/ the fk constraints, in ways which aren't all
that cumbersome.)

One thought did occur to me---why did he think I had all those constraints
in my PostgreSQL table creation code? Hmm...

Cheers

Quote:

By rights, the first argument ought to be that the slightest error in the
in-house code risks integrity for the whole installation but usually who
wins either of these two arguments is a matter of who has more of mgmt's
ear, so in practice it still comes down to politics.

Of course, if you're lucky enough to win either argument over the heads of
the ignorants, some of those will make themselves your enemies in future,
wherever you may go. Having experienced all of the above over many years,
my attitude now would be to just try to get along with them and plan to
get out at the earliest opportunity, with your conscience intact and your
resume untarnished. If it is a localized mundane commercial application,
eg., nothing to do with say, public safety, life's too short for any other
course.

#44

"paul c" <toledobysea (AT) ac (DOT) ooyah> wrote

Quote:

sinister wrote:
...
What do I do if he gets back to me and says---as I'm sure everyone in his
position does---"oh, but my PHP code makes sure everything is done
right"? Not that I don't know what to say, but it would be good to have a
pointer to an essay or webpage that succinctly explains why you're asking
for trouble if you don't encode such relationships in the DB itself.
...

It is usually pointless to argue technical points with ignorants, even if
they are well-meaning that will encourage even more wasteful work on top
of the existing mistakes. The only argument I've ever seen succeed was to
tell management that certain features of the product it had invested in
were being ignored and that they were paying extra to code those features
in-house. That is still a long-shot as most managements are also too lazy
or ignorant to pay attention to non-political issues.

Thanks for your reply.

It's actually just a relatively small DB for a group in a scientific
institute. So very few people involved. I sent the guy an email, and
instead of protesting (I'm informally supervising him), he said he did it
that way because it's awkward to have constraints because he's importing
lots of sloppy data from spreadsheets etc. When I told him he _had_ to have
fk constraints, he yielded w/o complaint. (Then I told him he could deal
with the sloppy data even w/ the fk constraints, in ways which aren't all
that cumbersome.)

One thought did occur to me---why did he think I had all those constraints
in my PostgreSQL table creation code? Hmm...

Cheers

Quote:

By rights, the first argument ought to be that the slightest error in the
in-house code risks integrity for the whole installation but usually who
wins either of these two arguments is a matter of who has more of mgmt's
ear, so in practice it still comes down to politics.

Of course, if you're lucky enough to win either argument over the heads of
the ignorants, some of those will make themselves your enemies in future,
wherever you may go. Having experienced all of the above over many years,
my attitude now would be to just try to get along with them and plan to
get out at the earliest opportunity, with your conscience intact and your
resume untarnished. If it is a localized mundane commercial application,
eg., nothing to do with say, public safety, life's too short for any other
course.

#45

"paul c" <toledobysea (AT) ac (DOT) ooyah> wrote

Quote:

sinister wrote:
...
What do I do if he gets back to me and says---as I'm sure everyone in his
position does---"oh, but my PHP code makes sure everything is done
right"? Not that I don't know what to say, but it would be good to have a
pointer to an essay or webpage that succinctly explains why you're asking
for trouble if you don't encode such relationships in the DB itself.
...

It is usually pointless to argue technical points with ignorants, even if
they are well-meaning that will encourage even more wasteful work on top
of the existing mistakes. The only argument I've ever seen succeed was to
tell management that certain features of the product it had invested in
were being ignored and that they were paying extra to code those features
in-house. That is still a long-shot as most managements are also too lazy
or ignorant to pay attention to non-political issues.

Thanks for your reply.

It's actually just a relatively small DB for a group in a scientific
institute. So very few people involved. I sent the guy an email, and
instead of protesting (I'm informally supervising him), he said he did it
that way because it's awkward to have constraints because he's importing
lots of sloppy data from spreadsheets etc. When I told him he _had_ to have
fk constraints, he yielded w/o complaint. (Then I told him he could deal
with the sloppy data even w/ the fk constraints, in ways which aren't all
that cumbersome.)

One thought did occur to me---why did he think I had all those constraints
in my PostgreSQL table creation code? Hmm...

Cheers

Quote:

By rights, the first argument ought to be that the slightest error in the
in-house code risks integrity for the whole installation but usually who
wins either of these two arguments is a matter of who has more of mgmt's
ear, so in practice it still comes down to politics.

Of course, if you're lucky enough to win either argument over the heads of
the ignorants, some of those will make themselves your enemies in future,
wherever you may go. Having experienced all of the above over many years,
my attitude now would be to just try to get along with them and plan to
get out at the earliest opportunity, with your conscience intact and your
resume untarnished. If it is a localized mundane commercial application,
eg., nothing to do with say, public safety, life's too short for any other
course.

#46

"paul c" <toledobysea (AT) ac (DOT) ooyah> wrote

Quote:

sinister wrote:
...
What do I do if he gets back to me and says---as I'm sure everyone in his
position does---"oh, but my PHP code makes sure everything is done
right"? Not that I don't know what to say, but it would be good to have a
pointer to an essay or webpage that succinctly explains why you're asking
for trouble if you don't encode such relationships in the DB itself.
...

It is usually pointless to argue technical points with ignorants, even if
they are well-meaning that will encourage even more wasteful work on top
of the existing mistakes. The only argument I've ever seen succeed was to
tell management that certain features of the product it had invested in
were being ignored and that they were paying extra to code those features
in-house. That is still a long-shot as most managements are also too lazy
or ignorant to pay attention to non-political issues.

Thanks for your reply.

It's actually just a relatively small DB for a group in a scientific
institute. So very few people involved. I sent the guy an email, and
instead of protesting (I'm informally supervising him), he said he did it
that way because it's awkward to have constraints because he's importing
lots of sloppy data from spreadsheets etc. When I told him he _had_ to have
fk constraints, he yielded w/o complaint. (Then I told him he could deal
with the sloppy data even w/ the fk constraints, in ways which aren't all
that cumbersome.)

One thought did occur to me---why did he think I had all those constraints
in my PostgreSQL table creation code? Hmm...

Cheers

Quote:

By rights, the first argument ought to be that the slightest error in the
in-house code risks integrity for the whole installation but usually who
wins either of these two arguments is a matter of who has more of mgmt's
ear, so in practice it still comes down to politics.

Of course, if you're lucky enough to win either argument over the heads of
the ignorants, some of those will make themselves your enemies in future,
wherever you may go. Having experienced all of the above over many years,
my attitude now would be to just try to get along with them and plan to
get out at the earliest opportunity, with your conscience intact and your
resume untarnished. If it is a localized mundane commercial application,
eg., nothing to do with say, public safety, life's too short for any other
course.

#47

"TroyK" <cs_troyk (AT) juno (DOT) com> wrote

Quote:

You might try comparing the code required to declare the FK in the
database (i.e., a one-liner) to the code required to enforce the
constraint in PHP. Maybe then he can see which is more likely to
contain errors.

TroyK

Thanks; that's a good idea.

#48

"TroyK" <cs_troyk (AT) juno (DOT) com> wrote

Quote:

You might try comparing the code required to declare the FK in the
database (i.e., a one-liner) to the code required to enforce the
constraint in PHP. Maybe then he can see which is more likely to
contain errors.

TroyK

Thanks; that's a good idea.

#49

"TroyK" <cs_troyk (AT) juno (DOT) com> wrote

Quote:

You might try comparing the code required to declare the FK in the
database (i.e., a one-liner) to the code required to enforce the
constraint in PHP. Maybe then he can see which is more likely to
contain errors.

TroyK

Thanks; that's a good idea.

#50

"TroyK" <cs_troyk (AT) juno (DOT) com> wrote

Quote:

You might try comparing the code required to declare the FK in the
database (i.e., a one-liner) to the code required to enforce the
constraint in PHP. Maybe then he can see which is more likely to
contain errors.

TroyK

Thanks; that's a good idea.