Upcoming Changes to News Server ...

#1

Due to recent action by Google concerning the comp.databases.postgresql.*
hierarchy, we are going to make some changes that should satisfy just
about everyone ... over the next 24hrs or so, traffic *to*
comp.databases.postgresql.* from the mailing lists will cease and be
re-routed to pgsql.* instead ... on our server (and we encourage others to
do the same), the comp.* groups will be aliased to the new pgsql.*
hierarchy, so that posts to the old groups will still get through ...

In order to improve propogation, as always, we welcome anyone wishing to
carry these groups to email usenet (AT) hub (DOT) org to get added on as a direct
peer ...

----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy (AT) hub (DOT) org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664

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#2

"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy (AT) postgresql (DOT) org> wrote:

Quote:

Due to recent action by Google concerning the comp.databases.postgresql.*
hierarchy, we are going to make some changes that should satisfy just
about everyone ... over the next 24hrs or so, traffic *to*
comp.databases.postgresql.* from the mailing lists will cease and be
re-routed to pgsql.* instead ... on our server (and we encourage others to
do the same), the comp.* groups will be aliased to the new pgsql.*
hierarchy, so that posts to the old groups will still get through ...

In order to improve propogation, as always, we welcome anyone wishing to
carry these groups to email usenet (AT) hub (DOT) org to get added on as a direct
peer ...

Mark,

No offense intended, but you already made one mistake by gating these
mailing lists into the big-8 hierarchy, then allowing them to be
propagated off whatever newserver to which that was done, into the
general newsfeed, w/o going through the big-8 newsgroup creation
process.

Now somebody's trying to fix that by going through the process to
legitimize comp.databases.postgresql.*, there is an RFD posted, and
you're going to up and create pgsql.*?

Did you warn the proponent of comp.databases.postgresql.* that you were
going to do this? Did you read any of the arguments for and against a
completely separate hierarchy that were posted to the RFD thread in
news.groups?

Jim

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#3

Quote:

Did you warn the proponent of comp.databases.postgresql.* that you were
going to do this? Did you read any of the arguments for and against a
completely separate hierarchy that were posted to the RFD thread in
news.groups?

Interesting point. What did come of all the arguments? These news server
changes seem to be fairly arbitrary and one lined. Perhaps this should
be taken up as a whole?

Did core at least vote on this?

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

Quote:

Jim

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#4

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 15:37:56 -0400 (AST), scrappy (AT) postgresql (DOT) org
("Marc G. Fournier") wrote:

Quote:

Due to recent action by Google concerning the comp.databases.postgresql.*
hierarchy, we are going to make some changes that should satisfy just
about everyone ... over the next 24hrs or so, traffic *to*
comp.databases.postgresql.* from the mailing lists will cease and be
re-routed to pgsql.* instead ... on our server (and we encourage others to
do the same), the comp.* groups will be aliased to the new pgsql.*
hierarchy, so that posts to the old groups will still get through ...

So you're basically going to make it worse than it already was and to
hell with everyone who was working to correct it, right? We'll surely
block propigation with that setup.

Quote:

In order to improve propogation, as always, we welcome anyone wishing to
carry these groups to email usenet (AT) hub (DOT) org to get added on as a direct
peer ...

You're still trying to shove your list up USENet's ass instead of

doing it the proper way. Why is that?

--
gburnore@databasix dot com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
How you look depends on where you go.
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Gary L. Burnore | ÝÛ³ºÝ³Þ³ºÝ³³ÝÛºÝ³Þ³ºÝ³Ý³Þ³ºÝ³ÝÝÛ³

Quote:

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#5

At 03:44 PM 11/23/2004, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

Quote:

Did you warn the proponent of comp.databases.postgresql.* that you were
going to do this? Did you read any of the arguments for and against a
completely separate hierarchy that were posted to the RFD thread in
news.groups?

Interesting point. What did come of all the arguments? These news server
changes seem to be fairly arbitrary and one lined. Perhaps this should
be taken up as a whole?

Setting this up outside of the comp. groups tells everyone you want to be
more like microsoft.* and less like major databases. Moreover, it means
less propagation since not all servers will carry them.

So much for working out the problems.

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#6

scrappy (AT) postgresql (DOT) org ("Marc G. Fournier") wrote in
news:20041123153243.W41705 (AT) ganymede (DOT) hub.org:

Quote:

Due to recent action by Google concerning the
comp.databases.postgresql.* hierarchy, we are going to make some
changes that should satisfy just about everyone ... over the next
24hrs or so, traffic *to* comp.databases.postgresql.* from the mailing
lists will cease and be re-routed to pgsql.* instead ... on our server
(and we encourage others to do the same), the comp.* groups will be
aliased to the new pgsql.* hierarchy, so that posts to the old groups
will still get through ...

In order to improve propogation, as always, we welcome anyone wishing
to carry these groups to email usenet (AT) hub (DOT) org to get added on as a
direct peer ...

----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services
(http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy (AT) hub (DOT) org Yahoo!: yscrappy
ICQ: 7615664

You can't have it both ways, Marc. If you are starting your own hierarchy,
fine, but you still insist on keeping them in comp.* too? You obviously
have zero respect for all of the people that have been involved in this
RFD. Drop the comp.* names entirely unless each individual group passes a
CFV. If not, your new pgsql.* hierarchy will be just as bogus as the
current groups, and don't expect Google to pick them up either.

#7

On Nov 23, 2004, at 3:59 PM, Gary L. Burnore wrote:

Quote:

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 15:37:56 -0400 (AST), scrappy (AT) postgresql (DOT) org
("Marc G. Fournier") wrote:

Due to recent action by Google concerning the
comp.databases.postgresql.*
hierarchy, we are going to make some changes that should satisfy just
about everyone ... over the next 24hrs or so, traffic *to*
comp.databases.postgresql.* from the mailing lists will cease and be
re-routed to pgsql.* instead ... on our server (and we encourage
others to
do the same), the comp.* groups will be aliased to the new pgsql.*
hierarchy, so that posts to the old groups will still get through ...

So you're basically going to make it worse than it already was and to
hell with everyone who was working to correct it, right? We'll surely
block propigation with that setup.

Marc appears to be the only one NOT making this situation worse. Let's
review. Since Mike Cox's unsolicited attempt to "fix" a problems that
he perceived, what has happened? The list has been deluged with
countless angry process oriented messages filled with vitriol and
devoid of any content regarding the purpose of this forum, we have been
bombarded with profanity, and the lists have been dropped from google.
This seems like it was a fool's errand from the beginning and Marc has
done nothing but try to cooperate to the extent reasonable. That does
not include jumping through every hoop that anyone holds up for him.

Quote:

In order to improve propogation, as always, we welcome anyone wishing
to
carry these groups to email usenet (AT) hub (DOT) org to get added on as a direct
peer ...

You're still trying to shove your list up USENet's ass instead of
doing it the proper way. Why is that?

I will not speak for Marc but say that as a member of the mailing list,
I think he does an excellent job of advocating the best interests of
the postgres community and I support his decisions. You can make any
accusations you like but we know what a good job Marc does and
appreciate Marc's efforts on our behalf.

Quote:

--
gburnore@databasix dot com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
----
How you look depends on where you go.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Gary L. Burnore |
ÝÛ³ºÝ³Þ³ºÝ³³ÝÛºÝ³Þ³ºÝ³Ý³Þ³ºÝ³ÝÝÛ³
|
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DataBasix |
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| ÝÛ³ 3 4 1 4 2 Ý³Þ³ 6 9 0 6 9
ÝÛ³
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#8

gburnore (AT) databasix (DOT) com ("Gary L. Burnore") wrote in
news:6.1.1.1.2.20041123160436.03a25748 (AT) popd (DOT) databasix.com:

Quote:

At 03:44 PM 11/23/2004, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

Did you warn the proponent of comp.databases.postgresql.* that you
were going to do this? Did you read any of the arguments for and
against a completely separate hierarchy that were posted to the RFD
thread in news.groups?

Interesting point. What did come of all the arguments? These news
server changes seem to be fairly arbitrary and one lined. Perhaps this
should be taken up as a whole?

Setting this up outside of the comp. groups tells everyone you want to
be more like microsoft.* and less like major databases. Moreover, it
means less propagation since not all servers will carry them.

And if he plans on having *2* newsgroups for each list (one in comp.* and
one in pgsql.*) then the credibility of his hierarchy will go further down
the drain.

Quote:

So much for working out the problems.

No further comment.

--
Bill

#9

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:23:19 -0500, pbk (AT) patrickbkelly (DOT) org (Patrick B
Kelly) wrote:

Quote:

On Nov 23, 2004, at 3:59 PM, Gary L. Burnore wrote:

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 15:37:56 -0400 (AST), scrappy (AT) postgresql (DOT) org
("Marc G. Fournier") wrote:

Due to recent action by Google concerning the
comp.databases.postgresql.*
hierarchy, we are going to make some changes that should satisfy just
about everyone ... over the next 24hrs or so, traffic *to*
comp.databases.postgresql.* from the mailing lists will cease and be
re-routed to pgsql.* instead ... on our server (and we encourage
others to
do the same), the comp.* groups will be aliased to the new pgsql.*
hierarchy, so that posts to the old groups will still get through ...

So you're basically going to make it worse than it already was and to
hell with everyone who was working to correct it, right? We'll surely
block propigation with that setup.

Marc appears to be the only one NOT making this situation worse. Let's
review.

Yes, let's do.

Quote:

Since Mike Cox's unsolicited attempt to "fix" a problems that
he perceived, what has happened? The list has been deluged with
countless angry process oriented messages filled with vitriol and
devoid of any content regarding the purpose of this forum, we have been
bombarded with profanity, and the lists have been dropped from google.

The latter is because NSPs are cleaning up bogus groups, not because
of attempts to correct the problem.

Quote:

This seems like it was a fool's errand from the beginning and Marc has
done nothing but try to cooperate to the extent reasonable.

No, it wasn't and no, he hasn't. Not in the least. In fact, just the
opposite.

Quote:

That does not include jumping through every hoop that anyone holds up for him.

Every hoop? Making the groups valid in USENet may be a hoop, but it's
only one. He hasn't even attempted to walk NEAR the hoop, let alone
jump through it.

It's becomming clear that the best thing to do is simply drop the
groups, just as google has done. You'll be relegated to only a few
servers. If that's what you want, why not just drop the newsfeed all
together? Save everyone the trouble.

Quote:

In order to improve propogation, as always, we welcome anyone wishing
to
carry these groups to email usenet (AT) hub (DOT) org to get added on as a direct
peer ...

You're still trying to shove your list up USENet's ass instead of
doing it the proper way. Why is that?

I will not speak for Marc but say that as a member of the mailing list,
I think he does an excellent job of advocating the best interests of
the postgres community and I support his decisions. You can make any
accusations you like but we know what a good job Marc does and
appreciate Marc's efforts on our behalf.

So ensuring that postgres shows up on LESS NSP servers than it does
now is a good thing? Making sure that people CAN'T discuss postgres
in the same way they discuss Oracle, Informix, Sybase and others is
advocating the best interests of the postgres community? Alienating
the very server operators who would carry said groups is fine with
you?

Amazing. Simply amazing.
--
gburnore@databasix dot com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
How you look depends on where you go.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gary L. Burnore | ÝÛ³ºÝ³Þ³ºÝ³³ÝÛºÝ³Þ³ºÝ³Ý³Þ³ºÝ³ÝÝÛ³

Quote:

ÝÛ³ºÝ³Þ³ºÝ³³ÝÛºÝ³Þ³ºÝ³Ý³Þ³ºÝ³ÝÝÛ³
DataBasix | ÝÛ³ºÝ³Þ³ºÝ³³ÝÛºÝ³Þ³ºÝ³Ý³Þ³ºÝ³ÝÝÛ³
ÝÛ³ 3 4 1 4 2 Ý³Þ³ 6 9 0 6 9 ÝÛ³
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#10

pbk (AT) patrickbkelly (DOT) org (Patrick B Kelly) wrote in news:E55E257B-3D95-11D9-
BD24-000A958A3956 (AT) patrickbkelly (DOT) org:

Quote:

The list has been deluged with
countless angry process oriented messages filled with vitriol and
devoid of any content regarding the purpose of this forum, we have been
bombarded with profanity, and the lists have been dropped from google.

The lists were dropped from Google because the newsgroups are using
unauthorized (*stolen*) comp.* namespace. The groups were created by
identity theft and criminal e-mail forgery of the comp.* hierarchy manager
at the time. Did you know that?

Marc can use this as an opportunity to start fresh, but now he wants to
have 2 newsgroups for each list? And you say that he is making things
better?

--

Bill