Re: Age of CDP'ers

#1

dawn wrote:

Quote:

Simon Verona wrote:

I have to say that I never considered myself "young".... 35 isn't young in a
high tech computer world?? Is it??? <G

Someone who has never considered himself young, eh? Hmm.

Sure, we are both young, but I suspect that less than 20% (10%? 5%?) of
the readers of cdp are younger than you.

20%! Wow, that IS optimistic! Your 5% figure may be better - especially
when we listen to the stories of what was happening in the late '60s in
other threads.

I'd have thought that I was on the younger side of the group with me
being <only> in my mid-40s. Of course that is young!

Quote:

Cheers! --dawn

Cheers,

Brian

--
************************************************** *
Brian Speirs
h: (04) 479 9032 c: (021) 265 5906
e: brian at rushflat dot co dot nz

#2

Children! Children! No squabbling PLEASE!
Peter McMurray
"Brian Speirs" <bss59REMOVE_THIS (AT) paradise (DOT) net.nz> wrote

Quote:

dawn wrote:
Simon Verona wrote:

I have to say that I never considered myself "young".... 35 isn't young
in a
high tech computer world?? Is it??? <G

Someone who has never considered himself young, eh? Hmm.

Sure, we are both young, but I suspect that less than 20% (10%? 5%?) of
the readers of cdp are younger than you.

20%! Wow, that IS optimistic! Your 5% figure may be better - especially
when we listen to the stories of what was happening in the late '60s in
other threads.

I'd have thought that I was on the younger side of the group with me
being <only> in my mid-40s. Of course that is young!

Cheers! --dawn

Cheers,

Brian

--
************************************************** *
Brian Speirs
h: (04) 479 9032 c: (021) 265 5906
e: brian at rushflat dot co dot nz

#3

I guess that this may also be skewed by the fact that this group is usenet
based..... The "older" ones amongst us here will have used the net since
before everything began http:// ... Younger Multi-value folk probably
aren't aware of usenet and nntp so probably haven't found this community.

So,I would doubt that the readers of this group reflect a cross-section of
the multi-value community in general...

Regards
Simon
"Brian Speirs" <bss59REMOVE_THIS (AT) paradise (DOT) net.nz> wrote

Quote:

dawn wrote:
Simon Verona wrote:

I have to say that I never considered myself "young".... 35 isn't young
in a
high tech computer world?? Is it??? <G

Someone who has never considered himself young, eh? Hmm.

Sure, we are both young, but I suspect that less than 20% (10%? 5%?) of
the readers of cdp are younger than you.

20%! Wow, that IS optimistic! Your 5% figure may be better - especially
when we listen to the stories of what was happening in the late '60s in
other threads.

I'd have thought that I was on the younger side of the group with me being
only> in my mid-40s. Of course that is young!

Cheers! --dawn

Cheers,

Brian

--
************************************************** *
Brian Speirs
h: (04) 479 9032 c: (021) 265 5906
e: brian at rushflat dot co dot nz

#4

This should work
http://www.picksource.com/modules.ph...&order=&thold=

Patrick <:=)

#5

(latimerp) wrote:

Quote:

This should work
http://www.picksource.com/modules.ph...&order=&thold=

Patrick <:=)

Very good -- not a scientific survey, but data none-the-less. I know
that there really are quite a few young'uns working in Pick in college
and university shops around North America since there are at least two
ERP solutions in higher ed that are Pick-based. Most of these folks
know they are working with either UniData or UniVerse, but rarely have
they heard of Pick.

Cheers! --dawn
P.S. For anyone curious, I did receive exactly one e-mail from one
other female reader of cdp (and u2-users), for which I am grateful. But
you might wonder what you guys have done to alienate the women. There
really are some on u2-users and plenty more around the MV community.
My guess: usenet always has been more of a male domain (and a more, uh,
seasoned group too). If you/we want to attract a more diverse audience
both in terms of gender and age, you/we would need a list that has
e-mail as one of the optional means of posting and receiving posts.
Just a opinion, of course.

#6

dawn wrote:
<snip>
For anyone curious, I did receive exactly one e-mail from one

Quote:

other female reader of cdp (and u2-users), for which I am grateful. But
you might wonder what you guys have done to alienate the women. There
really are some on u2-users and plenty more around the MV community.
My guess: usenet always has been more of a male domain (and a more, uh,
seasoned group too). If you/we want to attract a more diverse audience
both in terms of gender and age, you/we would need a list that has
e-mail as one of the optional means of posting and receiving posts.
Just a opinion, of course.

Well Glen could do a survey, but I think males make up the vast majority
of non-U2 MV developers. In the places I've worked collectively,women
were less than 10% of the folks that developed MV software. Remember U2
is in the larger shops. Other MV has historically been SMB market. I
have worked in a couple of U2 shops, that's where the ladys were.

The ratio in the industry as a whole is not much different as far as I
can tell, perhaps 15% females in development (look it up). The strange
part is, that number is shrinking. Look up M/F ratio percentage for C.S.
Majors. Of course my teenage daughter just says it's boring, and she'll
have nothing to do with it

My teen son want to write video games

(teenagers, &%&()_#!@#, but I digress)

I guess women really are smarter, even when young. But I've suspect
this group is made up primarily, of overgrown teenage guys. On the
flip side, speaking for the boys, we sure are glad to see ya. <g>

Patrick, <;=)

#7

(latimerp) wrote:

Quote:

dawn wrote:
snip
For anyone curious, I did receive exactly one e-mail from one
other female reader of cdp (and u2-users), for which I am grateful. But
you might wonder what you guys have done to alienate the women. There
really are some on u2-users and plenty more around the MV community.
My guess: usenet always has been more of a male domain (and a more, uh,
seasoned group too). If you/we want to attract a more diverse audience
both in terms of gender and age, you/we would need a list that has
e-mail as one of the optional means of posting and receiving posts.
Just a opinion, of course.

Well Glen could do a survey, but I think males make up the vast majority
of non-U2 MV developers. In the places I've worked collectively,women
were less than 10% of the folks that developed MV software. Remember U2
is in the larger shops.

I always thought of it as SMB. It started in the Pr1me world with
primarily SMB, although granted are some large shops.

Quote:

Other MV has historically been SMB market. I
have worked in a couple of U2 shops, that's where the ladys were.

I think I'm repeating this one, but one of my employees once said when
his friend pointed to me asking who that lady was -- "That's no lady,
that's my boss."

Quote:

The ratio in the industry as a whole is not much different as far as I
can tell, perhaps 15% females in development (look it up).

I haven't been keeping up, but the last figure I heard for women in
business information systems (excluding networking and hardware types)
was 40%. The answer might depend on the question, however (duh).

Quote:

The strange
part is, that number is shrinking.

I know, I can feel it.

Quote:

Look up M/F ratio percentage for C.S.
Majors.

I suspect that the number of female CS majors has never been very high,
but it does appear to be shrinking. I was never a CS major and I
cannot think of any of my female colleagues who were.

Quote:

Of course my teenage daughter just says it's boring, and she'll
have nothing to do with it

Did we attract more women into the discipline when we were hiring
people who were not CS majors?

It almost seems to have the appeal of a discipline named "Automotive
Science" or something -- why do I care about computers? I guess I
don't really. I care about information. MIS is an old-fashioned name.
Business IS majors often don't have enough technical depth. I kept
some women business majors in a college Java course by framing it as a
DIY craft. Sure you can buy curtains, but it is fun to know how to
make them too. Unfortunately, Java is not an easy first language. It
is like starting to sew by putting in a hidden zipper or something.

I know there are a lot of women out there who could be dynamite
software developers but the draw in higher ed is not there for them.
The dot com situation likely helped attract women, but that is history.
We need to reshape how we teach it and perhaps not make "Computer
Science" the umbrella term that includes all software development. My
angle right now is to go at it through WebDev (web development) where
there are quite a few more women. It requires a good mix of right &
left brain activities.

Quote:

My teen son want to write video games

(teenagers, &%&()_#!@#, but I digress)

Don't expect their 20's to be a lot easier ;-)

Quote:

I guess women really are smarter, even when young. But I've suspect
this group is made up primarily, of overgrown teenage guys. On the
flip side, speaking for the boys, we sure are glad to see ya. <g

Well, thanks for includin' me in your boys club. I'm honored. Cheers!
--dawn

Quote:

Patrick, <;=)

#8

I think there must be a UK/US divide in attitudes to women in IT..

Whilst I know several American Women in IT... I can only recall one in the
UK that I've come across, and she was American!!

It would appear to me that IT is much more male dominated here! I'm
guessing that this is due as much to prejudices in education (my daughter
hates IT at school cos "it's full of boys") as it is to employer prejudice
(which undoubtably still occurs)

Regards
Simon
"dawn" <dawnwolthuis (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote

Quote:

(latimerp) wrote:
dawn wrote:
snip
For anyone curious, I did receive exactly one e-mail from one
other female reader of cdp (and u2-users), for which I am grateful. But
you might wonder what you guys have done to alienate the women. There
really are some on u2-users and plenty more around the MV community.
My guess: usenet always has been more of a male domain (and a more, uh,
seasoned group too). If you/we want to attract a more diverse audience
both in terms of gender and age, you/we would need a list that has
e-mail as one of the optional means of posting and receiving posts.
Just a opinion, of course.

Well Glen could do a survey, but I think males make up the vast majority
of non-U2 MV developers. In the places I've worked collectively,women
were less than 10% of the folks that developed MV software. Remember U2
is in the larger shops.

I always thought of it as SMB. It started in the Pr1me world with
primarily SMB, although granted are some large shops.

Other MV has historically been SMB market. I
have worked in a couple of U2 shops, that's where the ladys were.

I think I'm repeating this one, but one of my employees once said when
his friend pointed to me asking who that lady was -- "That's no lady,
that's my boss."

The ratio in the industry as a whole is not much different as far as I
can tell, perhaps 15% females in development (look it up).

I haven't been keeping up, but the last figure I heard for women in
business information systems (excluding networking and hardware types)
was 40%. The answer might depend on the question, however (duh).

The strange
part is, that number is shrinking.

I know, I can feel it.

Look up M/F ratio percentage for C.S.
Majors.

I suspect that the number of female CS majors has never been very high,
but it does appear to be shrinking. I was never a CS major and I
cannot think of any of my female colleagues who were.

Of course my teenage daughter just says it's boring, and she'll
have nothing to do with it

Did we attract more women into the discipline when we were hiring
people who were not CS majors?

It almost seems to have the appeal of a discipline named "Automotive
Science" or something -- why do I care about computers? I guess I
don't really. I care about information. MIS is an old-fashioned name.
Business IS majors often don't have enough technical depth. I kept
some women business majors in a college Java course by framing it as a
DIY craft. Sure you can buy curtains, but it is fun to know how to
make them too. Unfortunately, Java is not an easy first language. It
is like starting to sew by putting in a hidden zipper or something.

I know there are a lot of women out there who could be dynamite
software developers but the draw in higher ed is not there for them.
The dot com situation likely helped attract women, but that is history.
We need to reshape how we teach it and perhaps not make "Computer
Science" the umbrella term that includes all software development. My
angle right now is to go at it through WebDev (web development) where
there are quite a few more women. It requires a good mix of right &
left brain activities.

My teen son want to write video games

(teenagers, &%&()_#!@#, but I digress)

Don't expect their 20's to be a lot easier ;-)

I guess women really are smarter, even when young. But I've suspect
this group is made up primarily, of overgrown teenage guys. On the
flip side, speaking for the boys, we sure are glad to see ya. <g

Well, thanks for includin' me in your boys club. I'm honored. Cheers!
--dawn

Patrick, <;=)

#9

Interesting - watch the flames come pouring down on me for my next
comments! I have been implementing a "major banking solution" for some
years and in Ireland, and UK banks have a lot more female gender type
persons in their IT departments - maybe as high as 60% - regrettably,
many of those know little about IT and act only as a glorified
secretary (record the problem, pass to another) - but the bank has
fulfilled their ethnic / gender quota. When you head off for eastern
europe, less women, but much higher skill capability.
As an aside, and as was told to me from one project meeeting: This
project seems to be all chiefs and no indians - whereupon HR woke up
and said 'oh no, I think you will find that we have a good ethnic mix'
doh!

#10

Simon Verona wrote:

Quote:

I think there must be a UK/US divide in attitudes to women in IT..

Whilst I know several American Women in IT... I can only recall one in the
UK that I've come across, and she was American!!

It would appear to me that IT is much more male dominated here! I'm
guessing that this is due as much to prejudices in education (my daughter
hates IT at school cos "it's full of boys") as it is to employer prejudice
(which undoubtably still occurs)

I've had the same experiance Simon. I have a son and a daughter who
started out with equal skills in Math. By the 4th grade my son was
in the Principal's office during math doing Algebra. By the 4th grade
my daughters advantage had evaporated, and she did not want to talk
about it. It's socialized out in the early grades in the US.
<snip>

Patrick, <:=)