Pick PHP

#31

On Mar 9, 12:16*am, Tony Gravagno
<address.is.in.po... (AT) removethis (DOT) com.invalid> wrote:

Quote:

Kevin Powick wrote:
On Mar 8, 3:47*pm, wjhonson wrote:

We're gonna put the old MvBase, D3, Universe, AR system under
maintenance only while our new fangled web guys work in PHP beefing up
the WJPD system....

Please send me the contact information for your "pharmacist"... You
know, the one that wears a jean jacket instead of a lab coat.

Yeah, I'm sorry Will but I think your faith in people and technology
is misplaced. *You're never going to find an army of people to write
you a new MV database ... for free. *You're never going to find
someone who has any sense writing a real DBMS in PHP.

I never asked anyone to write anything. I'm writing it myself.
Actually no one with any sense would write one in BASIC... oh wait..
skip that.

Quote:

Will, the one strength you cite is that the DBMS will run on the web
server. *Well, on one hand, all databases, relational and otherwise,
will run on a web server. *On the other hand, SOP is to run databases
on a separate server anyway.

Which of course is why, 82.7% of all small business websites with
databases, have the databases on the same server as their web site.
And small business is really the target here, we all know large
companies have no clue about where the bleeding edge actually is.

Quote:

You don't need to write a DBMS in PHP to make it run with a web
server.

Not *with* a web server. *On* a web server.

Quote:

*In fact it seems the premise of your whole discussion is
centered around the elegance of using the same language for apps and
DBMS. *You need to open up a bit to the concept that software these
days exists in many tiers, and it doesn't matter what languages are
used at each tier anymore.

Which is why all the web jobs are either using LAMP or AJAX
structures, and not Pascal or Lisp right?

Quote:

You use the right tools/languages to suit
the jobs - and while PHP script is well suited to web applications,
it's not well suited for writing engines like databases or other
servers.

I don't know people say a lot of things, but showing evidence for the
beliefs is different.
Web apps are already horribly slow in the best cases, adding a few
slow but local database lookups won't be noticed in all that. In fact
looking something up in a local database, might prove to be faster no
matter what, compared to reaching over to a sister server even if its
in the same room.

Quote:

Will wrote:
But after all that work, if people start saying, oh
gee why you doing all that?

Look a the "cURL" project which has a number of language bindings and
it's _extremely_ popular. *Also check out most any cloud-based SaaS
platform these days (Google, Twitter, Facebook, and hundreds of
others) and you'll find a well-defined API with a collection of
language libraries that implement it. *Why do that? *Well dude, that's
the way it's done these days because it allows everyone to contribute
to the platform, _and_ it allows everyone to incorporate the core
platform (via mashups) into whatever application they like with their
language of choice.

(IMO this thread is starting to suffer from interest rot, my own
anyway)

T

Fine but that doesn't negate the advantage of having a database and
application all written using the same language. Doing that doesn't
mean you don't also create an API. You're competing at that lower
level. Why reinvent the wheel? Because it can be done and others
have done it. When someone wrote Java did they say, gee there are
already fifteen other languages why write a new one? Why write
anything new ? Everything's been done. Let's all be mushrooms.

Will Johnson

#32

Will,

If you are serious about this, rather than PHP, I'd respectfully
suggest that GO is a better alternative (http://golang.org). GOmv will
prove just how leading edge MV can be, and because you are leveraging
a Google product (OK, so it is a Beta, but EVERYTHING Google does is a
Beta!!), should make it a snack to attract VC's

Also, because GO is so new, you will also attract a LOT of developers
who will want to use it, because a native GO database will be just so
attractive to them.

#33

"Tony Gravagno" <address.is.in.posts (AT) removethis (DOT) com.invalid> wrote in
message news:5vtbp55obn0qc8rn0o042srclvl8g92gse (AT) 4ax (DOT) com...

Quote:

Kevin Powick wrote:

On Mar 8, 3:47 pm, wjhonson wrote:

We're gonna put the old MvBase, D3, Universe, AR system under
maintenance only while our new fangled web guys work in PHP beefing up
the WJPD system....

Please send me the contact information for your "pharmacist"... You
know, the one that wears a jean jacket instead of a lab coat.

Yeah, I'm sorry Will but I think your faith in people and technology
is misplaced. You're never going to find an army of people to write
you a new MV database ... for free. You're never going to find
someone who has any sense writing a real DBMS in PHP.

Will, the one strength you cite is that the DBMS will run on the web
server. Well, on one hand, all databases, relational and otherwise,
will run on a web server. On the other hand, SOP is to run databases
on a separate server anyway.

You don't need to write a DBMS in PHP to make it run with a web
server. In fact it seems the premise of your whole discussion is
centered around the elegance of using the same language for apps and
DBMS. You need to open up a bit to the concept that software these
days exists in many tiers, and it doesn't matter what languages are
used at each tier anymore. You use the right tools/languages to suit
the jobs - and while PHP script is well suited to web applications,
it's not well suited for writing engines like databases or other
servers.

Will wrote:
But after all that work, if people start saying, oh
gee why you doing all that?

Look a the "cURL" project which has a number of language bindings and
it's _extremely_ popular. Also check out most any cloud-based SaaS
platform these days (Google, Twitter, Facebook, and hundreds of
others) and you'll find a well-defined API with a collection of
language libraries that implement it. Why do that? Well dude, that's
the way it's done these days because it allows everyone to contribute
to the platform, _and_ it allows everyone to incorporate the core
platform (via mashups) into whatever application they like with their
language of choice.

(IMO this thread is starting to suffer from interest rot, my own
anyway)

T

A new corollary to Murphy's Law or Perhaps Peter's Principle - The mass of
the thread is directly proportional to the age of the posters.

BobJ

#34

On Mar 9, 3:44*am, Chairpotato <chairpot... (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote:

Quote:

Which is why all the web jobs are either using LAMP or AJAX
structures, and not Pascal or Lisp right?

You do realize that the "M" in LAMP is for MySQL. Good luck
supplanting that.

I think you are looking to solve a problem that isn't there.

Quote:

Web apps are already horribly slow in the best cases

Really? How so? Most web apps are a GUI to a back end doing all the
heaving lifting. Any slowness is likely the pipeline, over which you
have no control.

Quote:

adding a few
slow but local database lookups won't be noticed in all that.

Yes, they will.

Quote:

*In fact
looking something up in a local database, might prove to be faster no
matter what, compared to reaching over to a sister server even if its
in the same room.

Many smaller websites have the DB as local to the webserver. Is it
slower to have the DB on box other than the webserver? Debatable.
While there *may* be some data transfer latency, that is often offset
by the reduction in use of local resources such as disk/io, cpu,
memory, etc.

Quote:

Fine but that doesn't negate the advantage of having a database and
application all written using the same language.

True, or we all wouldn't be using MV. However, PHP is a terrible
choice to write a database engine.

--
Kevin Powick

#35

But isn't GO Linux only?
BobJ

"Ross Ferris" <rossf (AT) stamina (DOT) com.au> wrote

Quote:

Will,

If you are serious about this, rather than PHP, I'd respectfully
suggest that GO is a better alternative (http://golang.org). GOmv will
prove just how leading edge MV can be, and because you are leveraging
a Google product (OK, so it is a Beta, but EVERYTHING Google does is a
Beta!!), should make it a snack to attract VC's

Also, because GO is so new, you will also attract a LOT of developers
who will want to use it, because a native GO database will be just so
attractive to them.

#36

"RJ" <nobody (AT) nowhere (DOT) com> wrote

Quote:

A new corollary to Murphy's Law or Perhaps Peter's Principle - The mass of
the thread is directly proportional to the age of the posters.

Maybe you're thinking of Godwin's Law.

--
frosty

#37

Quote:

"RJ" <nobody (AT) nowhere (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:R%qln.248152$OX4.233025 (AT) newsfe25 (DOT) iad...

A new corollary to Murphy's Law or Perhaps Peter's Principle - The mass
of the thread is directly proportional to the age of the posters.

frosty suggested:

Quote:

Maybe you're thinking of Godwin's Law.

Or dare I say Formosa's?

--
frosty

#38

"frosty" <frostyj (AT) bogus (DOT) tld> wrote

Quote:

"RJ" <nobody (AT) nowhere (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:R%qln.248152$OX4.233025 (AT) newsfe25 (DOT) iad...

A new corollary to Murphy's Law or Perhaps Peter's Principle - The mass
of the thread is directly proportional to the age of the posters.

Maybe you're thinking of Godwin's Law.

In our case, the probability of citing Codd approaches 1.

BobJ

Quote:

--
frosty

#39

On Mar 9, 5:32*am, Kevin Powick <kpow... (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote:

Quote:

On Mar 9, 3:44*am, Chairpotato <chairpot... (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote:

Which is why all the web jobs are either using LAMP or AJAX
structures, and not Pascal or Lisp right?

You do realize that the "M" in LAMP is for MySQL. *Good luck
supplanting that.

I think you are looking to solve a problem that isn't there.

Yes mySQL is an SQL database, and yes it can live on the same web
server as the PHP interpreter, so you'd think they'd be fast working
together. I'm however talking about the creation of a Pick-style
database, not another SQL database.

Quote:

Web apps are already horribly slow in the best cases

Really? *How so? *Most web apps are a GUI to a back end doing all the
heaving lifting. *Any slowness is likely the pipeline, over which you
have no control.

That's right. That's why the addition of a few *slow* database lookups
won't make any difference to the web-app user. The speed issue is
more tied to the speed of the user-connection, not the intra-process
speed between local components on the server.

Quote:

adding a few
slow but local database lookups won't be noticed in all that.

Yes, they will.

No they won't.

Quote:

Fine but that doesn't negate the advantage of having a database and
application all written using the same language.

True, or we all wouldn't be using MV. *However, PHP is a terrible
choice to write a database engine.

Says you

Lots of people are using PHP to do database lookups already.
It's just that their only reasonable choices are flat file or mySQL.
Now they'll have a third choice. That's it.

#40

I've already given up here. This is sounding like Monty Python's
Argument Clinic.

Will, create a new MV database in PHP. Have fun. Let us know how it
goes. Who knows - you may win some hearts.

T