MV community lawsuits

Hi Tony
I know what you mean. Even when you are correct the risks can be quite
high. We have been relieved of our software on several occasions and or had
people renege on very large contracts normally following take-overs,
liquidations or just plain dodgy dealing. However when we took legal advice
about one particularly large deal debacle we were told that we had a very
good chance of winning, we would be in court for 3+ years in a state a
1000km from home, and the legal fee estimate was in the order of 50 times
our net worth at that point. Guess What! we walked away
..
However as a warning to new comers to trust nothing but the cash in the bank
here is one that to the best of my knowledge never made it to court.

We were shocked to be told by ex AWA staff that the company had an
interesting approach to intellectual property and copyright. The company
apparently felt entitled to take copies of any software that was on a
machine maintained by them without mentioning this to the software
supplier - for the client's protection of course. In our case a salesperson
took this to new heights by doing a deal with a couple of people on the
client's staff to transfer our software to another machine. We were simply
told that they had a new supplier. Perhaps the salesperson thought our 10%
was a waste of money that they could use.

As is often the way with these things we found out in a strange fashion. I
was having a quiet ale in a motel in one of those far flung places where
aeroplanes still had propellors when the only other gentleman in town
wearing a suit joined me. After a short time we realised that we both new a
lot about a particular company that his organisation had recently taken
over. On further note comparison it transpired that the two people most
closely associated with the AWA deal had received a suggestion that they
exercise their talents elsewhere. However it seems that one of them had
adopted the AWA approach with Microsoft and Lotus software. So in order to
enhance his payout he approached the appropriate software organisation and
asked for the $2000 reward for notification of misuse of unregistered
software. Anton Pilar orders flew like confetti and the new organisation
were less than pleased. With this in mind the executive made prompt
enquiries and was told quite clearly by IT personnel that the software on
their system was definitely "borrowed" from us.

I was invited to visit whereupon a quick check showed that the transfer had
been done so cleanly that I simply had to run my upgrade software across the
files and they were running the latest version. A new fee was paid and they
resumed paying the regular package licence fee and maintenance. Meanwhile
AWA managed to go into complete meltdown with dodgy money trades and the
like so it certainly was not worth me pursuing them. However I have often
wondered if it was a one off or if our Excalibur Oil System somehow found
its way into GA offerings elsewhere. Of course I will never know although I
may one day write a book entitled "1001 ways to get shafted", based on the
rule "Build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door.
On arrival they will then bash you and steal it"

Peter McMurray

"Tony Gravagno" <g6q3x9lu53001 (AT) sneakemail (DOT) com.invalid> wrote

Some of us might have more fun talking about law suits if we weren't
concerned about being brought into court because of it. I just wrote
a couple anecdotes, but even without mentioning names or any specifics
I decided it wasn't prudent to post in public. Not worth the risks.

T

There is a lot of info I can give you but it would have to be off the
public record.

MVGuru wrote:

There is a lot of info I can give you but it would have to be off the
public record.

Please e-mail me at dwolt at tincat-group dot com and we can chat.
Thanks. --dawn

Peter McMurray wrote:
<snip>

However as a warning to new comers to trust nothing but the cash in the bank
here is one that to the best of my knowledge never made it to court.

We were shocked to be told by ex AWA staff that the company had an
interesting approach to intellectual property and copyright. The company
apparently felt entitled to take copies of any software that was on a
machine maintained by them without mentioning this to the software
supplier - for the client's protection of course. In our case a salesperson
took this to new heights by doing a deal with a couple of people on the
client's staff to transfer our software to another machine.

Wow.

We were simply
told that they had a new supplier. Perhaps the salesperson thought our 10%
was a waste of money that they could use.

As is often the way with these things we found out in a strange fashion. I
was having a quiet ale in a motel in one of those far flung places where
aeroplanes still had propellors when the only other gentleman in town
wearing a suit joined me. After a short time we realised that we both new a
lot about a particular company that his organisation had recently taken
over. On further note comparison it transpired that the two people most
closely associated with the AWA deal had received a suggestion that they
exercise their talents elsewhere. However it seems that one of them had
adopted the AWA approach with Microsoft and Lotus software. So in order to
enhance his payout he approached the appropriate software organisation and
asked for the $2000 reward for notification of misuse of unregistered
software. Anton Pilar orders flew like confetti and the new organisation
were less than pleased. With this in mind the executive made prompt
enquiries and was told quite clearly by IT personnel that the software on
their system was definitely "borrowed" from us.

I was invited to visit whereupon a quick check showed that the transfer had
been done so cleanly that I simply had to run my upgrade software across the
files and they were running the latest version. A new fee was paid and they
resumed paying the regular package licence fee and maintenance. Meanwhile
AWA managed to go into complete meltdown with dodgy money trades and the
like so it certainly was not worth me pursuing them.

They still exist as Fusionware or some such, right? Are some of the
same people there?

However I have often
wondered if it was a one off or if our Excalibur Oil System somehow found
its way into GA offerings elsewhere. Of course I will never know although I
may one day write a book entitled "1001 ways to get shafted", based on the
rule "Build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door.
On arrival they will then bash you and steal it"

Good story, Peter. I look forward to reading the book. --dawn

No. TRW did sue Pick and others. Some settled. Pick's defense was, legally
if not ethically, that he had gotten tapes with GIRLS from the army (just by
filling out the right forms). The fact that he did it post facto seemed to
have been overlooked.

Fwiw, when the company that Pick first joined (known variously as General
Systems, Republic Data Systems and Ancom Systems), which is where I met him
and where we started initial development on an IBM 370, went belly-up, I
remember getting called to a discovery hearing for the bankruptcy court.
Apparently said company was spending thousands (in 1968) a week on-what are
they again-computers? and the lawyers were convinced some monkey business
was afoot.

I went along with my then girlfriend (we were shopping), not realizing it
was "important". It was the LAW. After being questioned for over two hours
and trying to explain to late-60's lawyers what computers, dataprocessing,
programming, timesharing etc was about, I could clearly see that they
thought 1) I was being completely honest or 2) I was a master dissembler and
they had to get to the truth. "You mean you personally spent $800 a week
on...what's this...timesharing charges?" "Yes" (I tried to inject a note of
levity at this point by mentioning how we programmers had IBM Selectrics
which, when used over the timeshare, could indicate every 2 seconds of cpu
time used by printing a $ sign. Blank looks. Decided not to become a
stand-up comedian). "What were you buying? Where is the product?" "Computer
time. On tapes somewhere" "Did you personally see these...'tapes'?" "No,
they're probably in a closet somewhere" etc.

Early on they asked me who the woman with me was, was she my lawyer? I said
no, my girlfriend. We were shopping downtown before we came in. "You mean
you and your girlfriend sort of just decided to drop in to this deposition?"
"Yes, pretty much"...Never heard from them again, guess they decided on 1).

Of course, the facts were that Pick and Morrison, his boss, went on to
continue the Microdata 800 development in Morrrison's house, so the lawyers
may have had a point...otoh, I believe Morrison covered himself by buying
some tapes and equipment from the bankruptcy court, which still did not know
what they had, so again, legally if not ethically, they were probably in the
clear.

btw, what's with Tony and others being shy about commenting about lawsuits?
Last I looked, we are under American jurisprudence, where unless there's a
court gag order, you're pretty much free to comment on most anything (well,
maybe not with the &*(& Patriot 2, but don't get me started). The law on
libel ain't as restrictive as it is in that well-known backward
(legalistically) country across the pond. And who would care anyway? We're
hardly commenting on earth-shaking stuff.

Chandru Murthi

"dawn" <dawnwolthuis (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote

murthi wrote:
"dawn" <dawnwolthuis (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:1133541189.732904.313980 (AT) g43g2000cwa (DOT) googlegroups.com...

murthi wrote:
Can't take credit for AQL, sorry.

The original GIM/GIRLS specification contained a comprehensive and
complete
updating specification. Not surprisingly, the AQL verbs were ADD,
DELETE
and
CHANGE. It was a precursor of the SQL in its capabilities. This was
implemented by the original Pick group (Pick, Earl, and 2 others whose
names
I forget) at TRW, "inherited" by Pick Systems on the qt (actually it
was,
and still is, all in the public domain, courtesy of the US Army since
it
was
taxpayer funded).

Somehow I don't think that all software written by any company today
for the US Army or any other government entity is automatically in the
public domain. Software laws have perhaps changed slightly in the past
four decades?

It was 1968. Was in public domain. Probably still is. TRW did not file
appropriate papers to ensure copyright belonged to them. Chandru

Ah, OK. They still sued Pick for something and he ended up paying them
some dollars IIRC. I couldn't find any information on that lawsuit,
although I did get some information from you or others a couple of
years ago. If you or anyone has information on that one, I'm all ears.

If anyone knows how to look up lawsuits (I'll have to stop by a law
library some day), please pass along anything you know about the
TRW-Pick lawsuit (or the Microdata-Pick lawsuit, or any of the others).
Is the lawyer who pressed for so many of these from Pick Systems still
living?

thanks. --dawn

murthi wrote:

No. TRW did sue Pick and others. Some settled. Pick's defense was, legally
if not ethically, that he had gotten tapes with GIRLS from the army (just by
filling out the right forms). The fact that he did it post facto seemed to
have been overlooked.

I thought Ken North, who was at TRW after Pick left working on
subsequent GIM projects, told me that Pick paid something like $25,000,
although I cannot find that exchange now, so it was probably lost with
my stolen computer, heavy sigh.

Fwiw, when the company that Pick first joined (known variously as General
Systems, Republic Data Systems and Ancom Systems),

I've also seen Syscom mentioned (such as on Malcolm's site
http://members.aol.com/mbpublish/49.html or
http://www.basismedia.com/microdata-....org/index.htm ). In the
latter, your name comes right after mention of Syscom. is that another
name for this same company? I think I asked you about that before and
you did not recall that name. I had a very hard time coming up with
the facts about the time between Pick leaving TRW and you joiningu up
with him at General Systems / Republic ... and finding anyone to verify
the name "Syscom" for anything.

which is where I met him
and where we started initial development on an IBM 370, went belly-up, I
remember getting called to a discovery hearing for the bankruptcy court.
Apparently said company was spending thousands (in 1968) a week on-what are
they again-computers? and the lawyers were convinced some monkey business
was afoot.

I went along with my then girlfriend (we were shopping), not realizing it
was "important". It was the LAW. After being questioned for over two hours
and trying to explain to late-60's lawyers what computers, dataprocessing,
programming, timesharing etc was about, I could clearly see that they
thought 1) I was being completely honest or 2) I was a master dissembler and
they had to get to the truth. "You mean you personally spent $800 a week
on...what's this...timesharing charges?" "Yes" (I tried to inject a note of
levity at this point by mentioning how we programmers had IBM Selectrics
which, when used over the timeshare, could indicate every 2 seconds of cpu
time used by printing a $ sign. Blank looks.

lol

Decided not to become a
stand-up comedian). "What were you buying? Where is the product?" "Computer
time. On tapes somewhere" "Did you personally see these...'tapes'?" "No,
they're probably in a closet somewhere" etc.

Early on they asked me who the woman with me was, was she my lawyer? I said
no, my girlfriend. We were shopping downtown before we came in. "You mean
you and your girlfriend sort of just decided to drop in to this deposition?"
"Yes, pretty much"...Never heard from them again, guess they decided on 1).

Good story.

Of course, the facts were that Pick and Morrison, his boss, went on to
continue the Microdata 800 development in Morrrison's house, so the lawyers
may have had a point...otoh, I believe Morrison covered himself by buying
some tapes and equipment from the bankruptcy court, which still did not know
what they had, so again, legally if not ethically, they were probably in the
clear.

btw, what's with Tony and others being shy about commenting about lawsuits?

There appear to have been so many lawsuits in this arena that I can
understand people wanting to avoid future ones, but I agree that
chatting about past ones should not be such a problem. One on one
chats might be easier than public ones only because everyone's memory
contains some inaccuracies and people might not want to inadvertantly
be inaccurate about something sensitive in public. That's just a
guess.

Last I looked, we are under American jurisprudence, where unless there's a
court gag order, you're pretty much free to comment on most anything (well,
maybe not with the &*(& Patriot 2, but don't get me started). The law on
libel ain't as restrictive as it is in that well-known backward
(legalistically) country across the pond. And who would care anyway? We're
hardly commenting on earth-shaking stuff.

Agreed. The stories are worth recording, I think. Thanks a bunch.
--dawn

Chandru Murthi

"dawn" <dawnwolthuis (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:1133801817.207551.174620 (AT) g14g2000cwa (DOT) googlegroups.com...

murthi wrote:
"dawn" <dawnwolthuis (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:1133541189.732904.313980 (AT) g43g2000cwa (DOT) googlegroups.com...

murthi wrote:
Can't take credit for AQL, sorry.

The original GIM/GIRLS specification contained a comprehensive and
complete
updating specification. Not surprisingly, the AQL verbs were ADD,
DELETE
and
CHANGE. It was a precursor of the SQL in its capabilities. This was
implemented by the original Pick group (Pick, Earl, and 2 others whose
names
I forget) at TRW, "inherited" by Pick Systems on the qt (actually it
was,
and still is, all in the public domain, courtesy of the US Army since
it
was
taxpayer funded).

Somehow I don't think that all software written by any company today
for the US Army or any other government entity is automatically in the
public domain. Software laws have perhaps changed slightly in the past
four decades?

It was 1968. Was in public domain. Probably still is. TRW did not file
appropriate papers to ensure copyright belonged to them. Chandru

Ah, OK. They still sued Pick for something and he ended up paying them
some dollars IIRC. I couldn't find any information on that lawsuit,
although I did get some information from you or others a couple of
years ago. If you or anyone has information on that one, I'm all ears.

If anyone knows how to look up lawsuits (I'll have to stop by a law
library some day), please pass along anything you know about the
TRW-Pick lawsuit (or the Microdata-Pick lawsuit, or any of the others).
Is the lawyer who pressed for so many of these from Pick Systems still
living?

thanks. --dawn

"dawn" <dawnwolthuis (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote

murthi wrote:
No. TRW did sue Pick and others. Some settled. Pick's defense was,
legally
if not ethically, that he had gotten tapes with GIRLS from the army (just
by
filling out the right forms). The fact that he did it post facto seemed
to
have been overlooked.

I thought Ken North, who was at TRW after Pick left working on
subsequent GIM projects, told me that Pick paid something like $25,000,
although I cannot find that exchange now, so it was probably lost with
my stolen computer, heavy sigh.

Knowing Pick (very well) it is entirely possibly he prevaricated when he
claimed he got off the lawsuit by the method described. Earl and Pacheco did
pay something like $25k to settle. One-upmanship was very alive and kicking
in the Pick world. btw, the deposition was in late '70, not '68.

Chandru

murthi wrote:
[snip]

btw, what's with Tony and others being shy about commenting about lawsuits?
Last I looked, we are under American jurisprudence, where unless there's a
court gag order, you're pretty much free to comment on most anything (well,
maybe not with the &*(& Patriot 2, but don't get me started). The law on
libel ain't as restrictive as it is in that well-known backward
(legalistically) country across the pond. And who would care anyway? We're
hardly commenting on earth-shaking stuff.

Do these laws also prevent litigious parties from sueing you regardless
and bankrupting you with legal fees? You may be in the right, but surely
you can still get royally screwed?

Luke

True, Luke, practically anyone can be sued for anything and until it gets
settled, can, indeed be financially screwed. but I don't live my life
worrying about minute probabilities. Even in the heyday of the Pick
lawsuits, after I left Pick the last thing on my mind was whether they would
sue me on intellectual whatever basis. Others I knew were paranoid about
this eventuality, even though California law was strongly on the side of the
employee. Too much caution is never a virtue.

Chandru


"Luke Webber" <luke (AT) webber (DOT) com.au> wrote

murthi wrote:
[snip]
btw, what's with Tony and others being shy about commenting about
lawsuits? Last I looked, we are under American jurisprudence, where
unless there's a court gag order, you're pretty much free to comment on
most anything (well, maybe not with the &*(& Patriot 2, but don't get me
started). The law on libel ain't as restrictive as it is in that
well-known backward (legalistically) country across the pond. And who
would care anyway? We're hardly commenting on earth-shaking stuff.

Do these laws also prevent litigious parties from sueing you regardless
and bankrupting you with legal fees? You may be in the right, but surely
you can still get royally screwed?

Luke