jimbali (AT) yahoo (DOT) com wrote in another newsgroup message:

"Pages generated by DB have highly interactive and intuitively easy
interfaces - much more so than any web page you've ever visited"

Why is that so?

On Apr 26, 3:16 pm, sh <sham... (AT) prupipe (DOT) com> wrote:
A number of reasons. Firstly Designbais is an AJAX application meaning
the page is dynamically created within the browser and that it
contacts the web server, and hence the backend application, during the
course of interaction with the user and not just at page submit.
Secondly the people writing designbais based applications are writing
applications distributed via a browser rather than writing web sites,
and there is a difference in how you approach such things.

We could write pages on this i suspect.


Rgds
Symeon.

Symeon wrote:
OK, I understand that. Even though I could do Ajax myself, but here it
is done for you. I'm OK with that.

While I can't ask you to write pages on it, I would like to hear a bit
more about this.

Their web site has a lot of good information. http://designbais.com/


"sh" <shamada (AT) prupipe (DOT) com> wrote

sh wrote:

As a big supporter of DesignBais, even I would be more reserved about
such claims. DesignBais allows the MV developer to create highly
interactive and dynamic web forms. There's no doubt that we can do
great things with the tools available, but even more complex web forms
are available using ASP.NET and related tools. Of course if you want
more complex forms you'll need to do more complex coding. That takes
more time, more money, more skills. This is the trade-off between
DesignBais and ASP.NET, and it is specifically for this reason that I
use, sell, and support both sides of this sort of development.

As one example of great Ajax-enabled web controls, have a look at
Telerik components. Start here:
http://www.telerik.com/products/aspnet/overview.aspx
and be sure to hit this page too:
<http://www.telerik.com/demos/aspnet/controls/examples/default/defaultcs.aspx>
Take some time to view and interact with the demos.
Note the extensive cross-browser compatibility.
http://www.telerik.com/products/aspn...r-support.aspx

Nebula R&D sells and supports DesignBais, and provides related
training and development services. If you have MV-only developers
then this is the software for you.

If you want more glitz and more browser compatibility, Nebula R&D can
also use Telerik components to create a stunning dynamic front-end to
your app using ASP.NET and mv.NET.

There's nothing wrong with using all of these products, depending on
your developer and end-user audiences.

We're going to rework our website very soon to profile DesignBais and
mv.NET, to show lots of screen shots and code samples, and to help
people identify the right solution for given tasks.

Contact me for details.

TG@ removethisNebula-RnD.com
Or in Continental Europe:
JRA@ removethisNebula-RnD.com

On Apr 27, 1:53 pm, sh <sham... (AT) prupipe (DOT) com> wrote:
I think the key is when you say "any web page you've ever visited" - I
am not sure what designbais systems you are comparing with, but many
designbais systems i know are developed as applications to be resold,
serve the needs of a company, or be used as a SaaS system. "any web
page youve ever visited" to me means visiting a page on the www which
is a combination of marketing information, corporate presence and a
hell of a lot of design, but often very little functionality.

As Tony rightly says you can achieve a lot more in ASP.NET (or php or
JSP etc for that matter) than you can in Designbais. I have been
involved in a number of projects with ASP.NET and written some very
advanced web sites using ajax and other technologies that probably
have more "wow" than many designbais web sites, but again these are
not really publicly accesible web sites but designed as an application
distributed over a browser.

Is the distinction clear ?


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I think Jim may have been a little over zealous with his comment. However
his main points are correct in that DesignBais is an excellent product for
rapid development of commercial grade software. There are very few
limitations on what you can accomplish with DB. Sure cosmetically more
pleasing pages can be produced, but not at this pace.

It took us a several months to create a php based customer service and
e-commerce module with no individual field validation. It is certainly
functional and looks great. The same can be created using DB in a fraction
of the time, including field validation. It won't be quite as cosmetically
pleasing though.

For a retail web site you may not want to use DB although you can. But for
commercial grade software intended for heads down data entry, there is no
tool better.

My humble 2 cents.
Jeff


"Symeon" <symeonb (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote

Keeping it real...

I get a bit put off by "fishing expeditions" or when people make obscure
references to how DesignBais compares to another technology when these folks
have little intention of giving the product a serious try. It seems that
most of these comments and questions are coming from people that don't have
a product to convert and just want to nit-pick certain aspects of how DB
works or compares to something else.

If you are a VAR and have a pick-based application and you have seen
applications (as shown as the conference) then I find it inconceivable that
you wouldn't want your application to look like that. I can't imagine why
you wouldn't want to take the quickest path to that goal using only your
current skill set.

We are fortunate enough to have David McLean on site this week helping us
expand our offerings and other refinements. The more we learn the happier I
am. The support and dedication by the DB team is extraordinary.

I want to mention one more thing that any VAR should be able to relate to.
When you look at the value of your company (however you valuate it) before a
conversion and after the conversion the difference in equity is dramatic.
If anyone is thinking of an "exit strategy" they would certainly be in a
much more favorable position with a DB application than a character-based
pick application.

I'm speaking from experience.

In fact, for those with an entrepreneurial side it even makes sense to learn
DB, approach a VAR and offer them a conversion for a piece of the business.
That's a win-win situation. We know there are hundreds of well-tested
pick-based vertical applications that could be made much more valuable after
conversion.

Jeff




"Jeffrey Kaufman" <jkaufman (AT) keydata (DOT) us> wrote

ASP.NET is a monumental abstraction of the direct business process the
application is written for. In saying this, I mean to imply that once the
application is developed, a new technical knowledge base is required to
support and enhance the business application. I am not saying ASP.NET can't
produce more complex, and abstract, forms and services, I'm just saying it
requires an additional layer of costly support.

Generally, this is not a favorable development with respect to MV; where the
usual development path is traversed by business owners/managers that write
what the business needs to operate, and the cost of development is properly
contained because those who sign the checks are often involved in the
development process. It is not unusual for the underlying business rules to
be well tested in the field and quite stable; the missing part being the
user interface, simply due to the tools available in the environment. The
main point here is that most (I did not say all) technical people know very
little about business in general and are not in a position to improve,
either because of constantly changing technology requirements or lack of
education and experience. You'll note this is significantly different in
the MV environment because the environment is conducive to business people
creating applications. How many of us have seen MV applications written by
technology mavens? They're not pretty!

Without addressing the many technology differences, MV has had one primary
..NET benefit for years; that is a centralized application server. My point
here regards infrastructure, not UI or non-business development complexity.
Each and every layer of technology complicates the computing infrastructure
and makes it more unstable. This is what I call the 95% solution; put three
or four of these technologies together and we have a 15 - 20% chance of
some kind of failure! The goal should alway be to reduce this complexity.

Just a few passing thoughts.

Bill

"sh" <shamada (AT) prupipe (DOT) com> wrote

Well stated. I second that opinion.

"Jeff Caspari" <FDFDFDFD (AT) sneakernet (DOT) com.invalid> wrote