"Tony Gravagno" <address.is.in.posts (AT) removethis (DOT) com.invalid> wrote in
message news:b3j43394hne29fknfak8rlvts88s107kit (AT) 4ax (DOT) com...
[snip]
x>

Tony,

I've used quite a few of the Telerik controls in ASP.NET development. Good
stuff. If your interested in such things, another place to look at similar
components is: http://www.componentart.com/home.aspx

dave

Jeff Caspari wrote:
Jeff

I appreciate your candor. I've seen your converted application in DB and
I think it is terrific. You've added tremendous functionality, and your
application is a knock out. I wish you much success.

And, yes, some of your criticisms are on the mark (ouch!). But I think
you are making an unwarranted assumption about all the people in this
newsgroup and what they do.

Not everyone in this newsgroup is a VAR, and not everyone needs to
convert a green screen application to something more modern, and not
everyone is limited to MV. Some of us know other technologies, and some
of us have the opportunity to develop a new application from scratch. So
we are wide open to choosing any platform we wish to host our new
application upon.

We know (and love) MV, but we also know (and hate) SQL and SQLSever. We
know (and love/hate) mvBasic, but we also know (and love) Visual Basic
..NET. We know (and love) multi-dimensional data structures, but we also
know (and suffer through) multi-table relational data structures.

We have looked at DesignBais. We recognize it's strengths, but we also
recognize it's weaknesses vis-a-vis other non-MV technologies. For
instance, there is a product called IronSpeed (www.ironspeed.com) which
will take a SQL or Access database and produce for you 80% of an ASP.NET
web based application for you - menus, forms, reports, etc. The
application is truly stunning to look at, gives the developer tremendous
power and flexibility (and it even has field-based validation).

So when we scan our field of options it is much wider than MV and it's
associated store of tools. MV might be the option we would love to make,
but other considerations might come into play - particularly cost and
saleability. MV is not the least expensive database around, and
DesignBais is surely not the least expensive developer tool or end-user
cost factor. So we have to juggle our options around before we lock
ourselves in to one platform.

So when the statement was made that DB pages are the most functional and
beautiful, I wondered why he would consider them better than, say,
IronSpeed's? Maybe there's something here that I don't know?

Well, from the answers presented here it turns out there may be. Some
answers have given me the impression that DB pages are sufficiently
pretty to catch the eye (which they are), but that they are, more
importantly, better than ASP.NET for end-user data entry. Web technology
is best for the occasional user. For the experienced user, it can get in
the way. If DB improves that end-user experience, than that is a big
plus. Maybe that was what Jim originally meant, and that's good to know.

Many of the participants in this newsgroup have a very myopic view of
computer technology. All they know is MV, that's all they want to know
and, most importantly, that's all they need to run their successful
businesses. Others have broken out into other technologies, and for them
MV is only one option of many. That is their field of reference.

This newsgroup should cater to both.

Jeff, I hope this clarifies where I'm coming from.

Are we still friends?

Aw shucks, yes.

Since everyone is displaying their "opinion" here goes.

Those who boast "mine is better" is missing the point. Having been in
this industry for more years than I wish to say (42 years), Everyone
is missing the main point of any computer system, green screen, web
based, hammer and chisel, or paper and pencil. Can the customer
perform his (or her) job effectively and fast or do they fight the
technology?

After working with green screen these many years, my customer want
results and not the "newest" techonology. Having been lectured by an
auditor from Earnest & Young that my customer main server Windows 2000
Server. was out dated, I had to remind him that the customer's needs
were being filled and since it was a closed enviroment, they had no on-
going problems.

DesignBais does give me something I have not had before. I can now add
the "sizzle" to the meat of my application. Should i change to SQL,
Access, .net or asp.net or pencil and paper is not the question. My
application provides many customers what they need to get their job
done - period. DesignBais may get other customer to use my system.

We can have dicussions about what is better, but that won't deter me,
I have too much experience in the MV world, and besides "I LIKE IT".
Having worked with IBM systems, I was always giving my customer a
reason why it could not be done. (Not enought disk space, not enought
memory, can't find all the source programs, etc etc). MV (dare I say
"PICK") allowed me to provide my customers what they needed and much
more.

I have learned visual basic, sql, and some .net, problem is it takes
longer to get the where I want to be, and that is, someone who can
provide a customer a solution and not cost them an arm and a leg.

The best system is the one that works without having problems. Now can
we all agree on that?

Rodney

all,

I need to add my 2 cents here. Yes, I am bias (not BAIS ;-), but in
this context, I won't be. I, like many others on this forum have 25+
years in MV. I have also developed a distribution package from
scratch for 7 years in VB 4, 5 and 6 with jBASE on the back end and I
still have customers using my package. Someone asked me recently, if
I have to write the same package all over again, what would I choose?

My answer was for the database was simple, MV. My answer for the tool
was DesignBais (ok, a little bias). The reason, because MV is what I
know. Plain and simple. I have been down the Visual path and don't
want to do that again. Its an exhausting task to find the right
development platform, then the right tools for the project because we
all know that the tools that come with enviornments like .NET need
third party packages to enhance the environment. All of this costs a
ton of money in both purchases and learning curve. I rewrote my
package completely twice because of the learning curve and I don't
want to go there again. Plus, everytime the 3rd party tool comes out
with a fix or an upgrade, I had to redistrube the application.

So, when a young wipper snapper tells me that I should use .NET, XML,
JAVA, etc, I normally tell them to put there money where there mouth
is. Starting from scratch you build the same application as me, use
whatever tool you like and I'll bet that I finish first. And, oh by
the way, mine cost me a fraction of what yours does.

Thanks for letting me blow off a little steam, now I can relax,

Rick