In another thread there was a discussion concerning thin clients. IIRC
the primary MV application designers for thin clients that come to mind
are DesignBais and Visage. I'd like to hear the pros & cons of each product.

I'm not really interested in product-bashing - just honest strengths and
weaknesses of each product.

Anyone with experience with either one or both?

Tony? Ross?

What are you trying to do? Are you considering converting your application?

I ask this because some questions do come from an academic view and some
might not want to engage in that exercise.

Jeff


"sh" <shamada (AT) prupipe (DOT) com> wrote

I have experiance of designbais for nearly two years now and have found
it to be an excellent tool for developing screens, reports etc for
distribution over a browser. It comes complete with security, menus,
infact nearly everything you are used to from SB+

Never seen visage.


rgds
Symeon.


Jeff Caspari wrote:

I have an old application that someone has shown some interest in moving
to a web-based interface. It's far from certain that it will ever get
done, so rather than interact with the vendors at this stage, I thought
I could get some preliminary feeling from CDP.

No, I'm not interested in academic arguments. I'm interested in
practical points. (But sometimes theoretic perspectives affect a
products usefulness, so those are game for discussion.)

Jeff Caspari wrote:

"sh" <shamada (AT) prupipe (DOT) com> wrote

Great.

I would never say anything negative about Visage or Ross or their support.

I will say that I chose DesignBais after looking at both products.
DesignBais was exactly what we have been looking for.

It's simple to understand from a Pick programmer's perspective. It requires
absolutely no knowledge of anything other than Pick Basic (no HTML, Java,
etc.). Our programmers became proficient after 2 weeks of on-site training.
We have never seen any bugs with the system. The support has been great.
Our application is now beautiful and we are hiring a new salesperson to show
it off.

In other words, I highly recommend DesignBais.

Jeff

As soon as I saw this thread I thought "oh no, not again"
(reminiscent of a bowl of petunias for some of you?). Anyway, please
Google CDP for prior discussions on this topic. If you want comments
on specific feature or points, please ask.

I didn't wake up one day and decide to get into food fights with Ross.
And as to making claims for a product, my perspective on this whole
thing is very different from his. Like many others, my experience is
one of basic exposure, increasing interest, and subsequent adoption
and advocacy. I'm more a user than a vendor and I think the software
speaks for itself. Have a look at both, ask questions, make your own
decisions. I'm not interested in trying to sell anything or getting
into point for point comparisons, especially in a public forum. Ross
wants to sell his software so you'll get a different, more competitive
angle there.

The number of people who have actually used both Visage and DesignBais
for projects will be tiny, so your audience for point for point
comparison may be low. Here are some notes/observations:

- So far I know no one who has tried DesignBais and then opted for
Visage but there are certainly a number of developers who have tried
Visage and then chosen DesignBais for business and/or technical
reasons.
- In all the time that I've been aware of Visage I've never had anyone
ask me to develop code with it but people ask me about DesignBais all
the time. Listen to the market.
- I've never heard people get excited about Visage but the comments
from people at the first Spectrum presentation of DesignBais were
overwhelming. (I called them the sweethearts of the show in my
post-conference review. Ross can call that bias but I didn't know who
these people were at the time.) After a one hour session that was
pulled into two hours, our resident cynic, Kevin Powick took the time
to start the recent thread in support of DesignBais. Jeff Caspari,
who's tried everything there is in this market including Visage has
adopted DesignBais and is raving about it. I've had similar
opportunities to get involved with Visage and just couldn't get over
some humps. I tried DesignBais, and have been consistently impressed
with the product and with the company that supports it. If word of
mouth means anything, come to your own conclusions.
- Visage has been around for years and this market has had plenty of
opportunity to make it the tool of choice for web development - but
that hasn't happened. In the last couple years DesignBais has made
large numbers of sales to sites of all sizes - this has to tell us
this product has something going for it that Visage does not.
- You can get an end-user site with about 10 concurrent users started
with DesignBais for $300. How tough is that? (See my "How many
licenses do I need?" blog article. Other details may apply.)


I am in the process right now of teaching some people Pick BASIC and
DesignBais at the same time. They will soon be adding a new front-end
to an existing ERP system that they know intimately. We are not
getting into education about anything else, no scripting or HTML, etc,
because it's not necessary. They are doing their training and
development over the internet because all they need is a browser and
there is no need to install anything on the developer systems. This
is one testimony to the ease of use of the software for new adopters.

International Spectrum hosts free webinars on DesignBais:
http://www.intl-spectrum.com/Default.aspx?tabid=95

I can also schedule more personal sessions for small groups, like VARs
who would like to privately evaluate the product with their clients.

HTH
Tony
designbais@ removethisNebula-RnD.com
http:// removethisNebula-RnD.com/news/pr-060522-designbais.htm
http:// removethisNebula-RnD.com/blog/category/designbais
See the two articles:
"What is DesignBais? Part 1" and "The DesignBais Audience"



sh wrote:

As a matter of fact, I did Google for DesignBais and Visage. But I found
the discussion so offensive and full of (veiled) personal attacks that I
would need to cut & paste just to get some semblance of information.
That's why I said I didn't want product-bashing.

Having said that, you're point about market share and growth of
DesignBais is well taken.

I guess I was hoping for a calmer discussion. Sorry it doesn't seem to
be working out that way.

Tony Gravagno wrote:

That's a weird thing to say. There is certainly enough good information
here to make a decision to move forward, if that was your intention.

It's the endless discussion that turns many people off (topic).

Just go for it.

Jeff

Tony Gravagno wrote:
[snip]
Hey! I though /I/ was cdp's resident cynic! <g>

Luke

Luke Webber wrote:

OK Luke, you guys can share the crown. So when are YOU going to join
one of my DesignBais sessions?

Hey Sholom, I really hope I didn't start anything but a calm
discussion. I've got a whole paragraph trying to convey that point
starting with "I didn't wake up one day...". Apologies if the rest of
it wasn't as calm as I intended.

BTW, I didn't mention that DesignBais is actually FUN. I thought I
was alone with that geeky sentiment but someone else in the DB forum
said it the other day too. It's interesting how FUN makes a huge
difference when it comes to deciding if a tool is right or not. It's
an adjective rarely applied to tools, especially in our market.

Regards,
T