datatel envision

#1

I am looking for something similar to Datatel's envision. I am very
interested in learning envision for consulting work. I have unidata
from ibm's site already. There is something called TOADS from some
college in CA that I think is very similar. What I really would like is
a copy of the envision toolkit. Any help would be appreciated.

#2

python473 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com wrote:

Quote:

I am looking for something similar to Datatel's envision. I am very
interested in learning envision for consulting work. I have unidata
from ibm's site already. There is something called TOADS from some
college in CA that I think is very similar. What I really would like is
a copy of the envision toolkit. Any help would be appreciated.

Hi python473 -- Envision in the late 80's, early 90's, was similar to
TOADS in the late 80's, early 90's (with the little I saw of TOADS) in
that they were both code generators running on Prime Information, and
they were both used in higher ed. The developer specs the software and
gens the BASIC code which runs in the Envision or TOADS (I think)
run-time environment (within the UniData VM). I'm not so sure that
coding in TOADS today (is it around, still in use at USC?) would be
helpful other than to learn how to use a code generator (which you
could do with DesignBAIS or Visage too). It is an old character-based
spec'ing tool, so you don't paint a WYSIWYG screen with a mouse, for
example. Envision BASIC is its own flavor of BASIC, generating
UniBasic, even if only as middleware to a SQL Server or Oracle backend
(most Datatel clients are still on UniData).

The only way you can gain access to anything resembling Envision is
likely to get access to Envision. The only way to do that is to be a
consultant to a Datatel client site. You can be an unpaid consultant,
but they would have to accept you as a consultant and give you access
to a development account. Additionally, it would be almost impossible
to learn without some documentation, which you would also want access
to from the site.

If you have any other questions, catch me in e-mail dwolt at
tincat-group dot com, providing your real name and what your plans are,
and perhaps I can help. --dawn

#3

"dawn" <dawnwolthuis (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote

Quote:

python473 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com wrote:
I am looking for something similar to Datatel's envision. I am
very
interested in learning envision for consulting work. I have
unidata
from ibm's site already. There is something called TOADS from some
college in CA that I think is very similar. What I really would
like is
a copy of the envision toolkit. Any help would be appreciated.

Hi python473 -- Envision in the late 80's, early 90's, was similar
to
TOADS in the late 80's, early 90's (with the little I saw of TOADS)
in
that they were both code generators running on Prime Information,
and
they were both used in higher ed. The developer specs the software
and
gens the BASIC code which runs in the Envision or TOADS (I think)
run-time environment (within the UniData VM). I'm not so sure that
coding in TOADS today (is it around, still in use at USC?) would be
helpful other than to learn how to use a code generator (which you
could do with DesignBAIS or Visage too). It is an old
character-based
spec'ing tool, so you don't paint a WYSIWYG screen with a mouse, for
example. Envision BASIC is its own flavor of BASIC, generating
UniBasic, even if only as middleware to a SQL Server or Oracle
backend
(most Datatel clients are still on UniData).

The only way you can gain access to anything resembling Envision is
likely to get access to Envision. The only way to do that is to be
a
consultant to a Datatel client site. You can be an unpaid
consultant,
but they would have to accept you as a consultant and give you
access
to a development account. Additionally, it would be almost
impossible
to learn without some documentation, which you would also want
access
to from the site.

If you have any other questions, catch me in e-mail dwolt at
tincat-group dot com, providing your real name and what your plans
are,
and perhaps I can help. --dawn

Python

Or would that be TOAD for Oracle and/or MySQL. Which I suspect is
nothing like the old PrIme/Uniwhatever package.

Rog

#4

rog wrote:

Quote:

"dawn" <dawnwolthuis (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:1161737152.434181.91050 (AT) b28g2000cwb (DOT) googlegroups.com...
python473 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com wrote:
I am looking for something similar to Datatel's envision. I am
very
interested in learning envision for consulting work. I have
unidata
from ibm's site already. There is something called TOADS from some
college in CA that I think is very similar. What I really would
like is
a copy of the envision toolkit. Any help would be appreciated.

Hi python473 -- Envision in the late 80's, early 90's, was similar
to
TOADS in the late 80's, early 90's (with the little I saw of TOADS)
in
that they were both code generators running on Prime Information,
and
they were both used in higher ed. The developer specs the software
and
gens the BASIC code which runs in the Envision or TOADS (I think)
run-time environment (within the UniData VM). I'm not so sure that
coding in TOADS today (is it around, still in use at USC?) would be
helpful other than to learn how to use a code generator (which you
could do with DesignBAIS or Visage too). It is an old
character-based
spec'ing tool, so you don't paint a WYSIWYG screen with a mouse, for
example. Envision BASIC is its own flavor of BASIC, generating
UniBasic, even if only as middleware to a SQL Server or Oracle
backend
(most Datatel clients are still on UniData).

The only way you can gain access to anything resembling Envision is
likely to get access to Envision. The only way to do that is to be
a
consultant to a Datatel client site. You can be an unpaid
consultant,
but they would have to accept you as a consultant and give you
access
to a development account. Additionally, it would be almost
impossible
to learn without some documentation, which you would also want
access
to from the site.

If you have any other questions, catch me in e-mail dwolt at
tincat-group dot com, providing your real name and what your plans
are,
and perhaps I can help. --dawn

Python

Or would that be TOAD for Oracle and/or MySQL. Which I suspect is
nothing like the old PrIme/Uniwhatever package.

Rog

I'm pretty sure it is http://www.usc.edu/dept/uscss/ and not
http://www.quest.com/toad_for_mysql/ (but maybe there is some
connection??)
--dawn

#5

"dawn" wrote:

Quote:

I'm not so sure that
coding in TOADS today (is it around, still in use at USC?) would be
helpful other than to learn how to use a code generator (which you
could do with DesignBAIS or Visage too).

Off-topic but related to the above. I have no idea how Visage works
in this area and I'll leave it to Ross to comment if he wishes. I
think it's important for people to know that DesignBais is _not_ a
code generator like other products of this type. DesignBais presents
a browser-based developer environment for design and testing of
browser forms, and all events triggered by form fields go directly
into application code. There is no application-related code generated
by this environment, all of the code is whatever is written by the
developer.

For purists who may argue whether absolutely no code is generated, the
latest version of DesignBais does include a pre-processor which allows
one to put BASIC codeblocks into form definitions. That BASIC code
can include the names of form fields, rather than the names of
variables assigned to those fields. So, for example in a codeblock
you can say "CUST.NAME = 'Acme'" rather than "DBRECORD<E.CUST.NAME> =
'Acme'". DesignBais pre-processes these codeblocks (generates code)
to resolve the fieldnames to the proper internal variable names,
completely without involving the developer in details about which
names are associated with which record attributes.

This is not code-generation as found in other products, where BASIC
code is generated to support all user I/O, event code is inserted in
template-fashion, and users are left to fill in the blanks with their
own unique application logic.

In summary, and this is one of the many reasons why I like DesignBais,
the user is in complete control of their code, and you don't need to
worry about some generator trashing your custom code segments. I'm
not completely against a good implementation of a code generator, and
I've used some decent ones for MV, Java, and other languages. But if
they're not done right they're usually very wrong. Despite it's hayday
of popularity, Wizard is one old example of what I would consider a
bad code generator. YMMV

T

#6

Tony Gravagno wrote:

Quote:

"dawn" wrote:

I'm not so sure that
coding in TOADS today (is it around, still in use at USC?) would be
helpful other than to learn how to use a code generator (which you
could do with DesignBAIS or Visage too).

Off-topic but related to the above. I have no idea how Visage works

Hasn't stopped you commenting in the past.

For the record, Visage IS NOT a code generator in the traditional sense
of the word, though it does do things like generate INCLUDE blocks for
dictionaries that you can use if you wish

<snip>

Quote:

For purists who may argue whether absolutely no code is generated, the
latest version of DesignBais does include a pre-processor which allows
one to put BASIC codeblocks into form definitions. That BASIC code
can include the names of form fields, rather than the names of
variables assigned to those fields. So, for example in a codeblock
you can say "CUST.NAME = 'Acme'" rather than "DBRECORD<E.CUST.NAME> =
'Acme'". DesignBais pre-processes these codeblocks (generates code)
to resolve the fieldnames to the proper internal variable names,
completely without involving the developer in details about which
names are associated with which record attributes.

WOW! Does this mean that now that DB has a Basic pre-processor like
Visage (?) that this facility has moved from being "too much" to become
"an innovative new feature" :-)

<snip>

Quote:

In summary, and this is one of the many reasons why I like DesignBais,
the user is in complete control of their code, and you don't need to worry

Now THAT is a novel and unique idea! Giving the user complete control
of their code. Who'd a thunk it !

Ross Ferris
Stamina Software
Visage > Better by Design!

#7

Tony Gravagno wrote:

Quote:

"dawn" wrote:

I'm not so sure that
coding in TOADS today (is it around, still in use at USC?) would be
helpful other than to learn how to use a code generator (which you
could do with DesignBAIS or Visage too).

Off-topic but related to the above. I have no idea how Visage works
in this area and I'll leave it to Ross to comment if he wishes.

I read Ross's comment that Visage is not a typical code generator
either. I will reserve my confusion until after your next point,
however.

Quote:

I
think it's important for people to know that DesignBais is _not_ a
code generator like other products of this type. DesignBais presents
a browser-based developer environment for design and testing of
browser forms, and all events triggered by form fields go directly
into application code.

I'm confused. They don't "generate code" but rather "go directly into
application code." Does that mean that there is no specification that
is saved at all that is proprietary to DesignBais? Instead of saving
any specs at all, it generates the code on the fly and parses the code
to get the picure of the spec? I'm quite sure it is not a round-trip
tool (I can't point it at any BASIC code and have it show the specs
visually, right?)

Quote:

There is no application-related code generated
by this environment, all of the code is whatever is written by the
developer.

Definitely confused. Is all of the code written by the developer, or
is it specified to DesignBais, which takes the specs (plus any exit
code, if applicable) and gens code? I do't understand how you get
source code using point and click if it is not either a) a code
generator or b) a round-trip development tool.

Quote:

For purists who may argue whether absolutely no code is generated, the
latest version of DesignBais does include a pre-processor which allows
one to put BASIC codeblocks into form definitions. That BASIC code
can include the names of form fields, rather than the names of
variables assigned to those fields.

OK, so it is sounding more like Envision, with its own way of writing
BASIC, preprocessing it to turn it into the appropriate flavor of
DataBASIC before it is compiled, right?

Quote:

So, for example in a codeblock
you can say "CUST.NAME = 'Acme'" rather than "DBRECORD<E.CUST.NAME> =
'Acme'". DesignBais pre-processes these codeblocks (generates code)
to resolve the fieldnames to the proper internal variable names,
completely without involving the developer in details about which
names are associated with which record attributes.

I would think that this code is generated along with other code
generated from specs so that some code is generated from specs and
other code is generated from code, while yet other code is just
injected inline with the generated code, perhaps?

Quote:

This is not code-generation as found in other products, where BASIC
code is generated to support all user I/O,

Perhaps you mean that there is no DesignBais run-time environment? Or
that there are no DesignBais libraries?

Quote:

event code is inserted in
template-fashion, and users are left to fill in the blanks with their
own unique application logic.

In summary, and this is one of the many reasons why I like DesignBais,
the user is in complete control of their code, and you don't need to
worry about some generator trashing your custom code segments.

Do either Visage or Envision trash the developer's code when an app is
generated?

Quote:

I'm
not completely against a good implementation of a code generator, and
I've used some decent ones for MV, Java, and other languages. But if
they're not done right they're usually very wrong. Despite it's hayday
of popularity, Wizard is one old example of what I would consider a
bad code generator. YMMV

Are you referring to WebWizard? Mel has done well in the Datatel space
with the product -- folks love it! Cheers! --dawn

#8

Ross, a serious question...

Do you think your comments (below) attract people to use your products?

"Ross Ferris" <rossf (AT) stamina (DOT) com.au> wrote

Quote:

Tony Gravagno wrote:
"dawn" wrote:

I'm not so sure that
coding in TOADS today (is it around, still in use at USC?) would be
helpful other than to learn how to use a code generator (which you
could do with DesignBAIS or Visage too).

Off-topic but related to the above. I have no idea how Visage works

Hasn't stopped you commenting in the past.

For the record, Visage IS NOT a code generator in the traditional sense
of the word, though it does do things like generate INCLUDE blocks for
dictionaries that you can use if you wish

snip
For purists who may argue whether absolutely no code is generated, the
latest version of DesignBais does include a pre-processor which allows
one to put BASIC codeblocks into form definitions. That BASIC code
can include the names of form fields, rather than the names of
variables assigned to those fields. So, for example in a codeblock
you can say "CUST.NAME = 'Acme'" rather than "DBRECORD<E.CUST.NAME> =
'Acme'". DesignBais pre-processes these codeblocks (generates code)
to resolve the fieldnames to the proper internal variable names,
completely without involving the developer in details about which
names are associated with which record attributes.

WOW! Does this mean that now that DB has a Basic pre-processor like
Visage (?) that this facility has moved from being "too much" to become
"an innovative new feature" :-)

snip
In summary, and this is one of the many reasons why I like DesignBais,
the user is in complete control of their code, and you don't need to
worry

Now THAT is a novel and unique idea! Giving the user complete control
of their code. Who'd a thunk it !

Ross Ferris
Stamina Software
Visage > Better by Design!

#9

Jeff Caspari wrote:

Quote:

Ross, a serious question...

Do you think your comments (below) attract people to use your products?

While he chews on that, I'll get him off the hook by suggesting it is
not his obvious arrogance but rather good looks and charming aussie
accent that do the trick. (But, Ross, Jeff has a point). smiles.
--dawn

Quote:

"Ross Ferris" <rossf (AT) stamina (DOT) com.au> wrote in message
news:1161809678.394920.248830 (AT) b28g2000cwb (DOT) googlegroups.com...

Tony Gravagno wrote:
"dawn" wrote:

I'm not so sure that
coding in TOADS today (is it around, still in use at USC?) would be
helpful other than to learn how to use a code generator (which you
could do with DesignBAIS or Visage too).

Off-topic but related to the above. I have no idea how Visage works

Hasn't stopped you commenting in the past.

For the record, Visage IS NOT a code generator in the traditional sense
of the word, though it does do things like generate INCLUDE blocks for
dictionaries that you can use if you wish

snip
For purists who may argue whether absolutely no code is generated, the
latest version of DesignBais does include a pre-processor which allows
one to put BASIC codeblocks into form definitions. That BASIC code
can include the names of form fields, rather than the names of
variables assigned to those fields. So, for example in a codeblock
you can say "CUST.NAME = 'Acme'" rather than "DBRECORD<E.CUST.NAME> =
'Acme'". DesignBais pre-processes these codeblocks (generates code)
to resolve the fieldnames to the proper internal variable names,
completely without involving the developer in details about which
names are associated with which record attributes.

WOW! Does this mean that now that DB has a Basic pre-processor like
Visage (?) that this facility has moved from being "too much" to become
"an innovative new feature" :-)

snip
In summary, and this is one of the many reasons why I like DesignBais,
the user is in complete control of their code, and you don't need to
worry

Now THAT is a novel and unique idea! Giving the user complete control
of their code. Who'd a thunk it !

Ross Ferris
Stamina Software
Visage > Better by Design!

#10

On 25 Oct 2006 14:22:54 -0700, "dawn" <dawnwolthuis (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote:

Quote:

Tony Gravagno wrote:
"dawn" wrote:
snip
not completely against a good implementation of a code generator, and
I've used some decent ones for MV, Java, and other languages. But if
they're not done right they're usually very wrong. Despite it's hayday
of popularity, Wizard is one old example of what I would consider a
bad code generator. YMMV

Are you referring to WebWizard? Mel has done well in the Datatel space
with the product -- folks love it! Cheers! --dawn

No, I'd hazard "Wizard" that was around, released with R83 at the
PC-AT stage .......early to mid-eighties .... and IIRC, released under
another name - "Implementor" ??? - at the same time for ADDS
Mentor......
Regards,

Bruce Nichol
Talon Computer Services
ALBURY NSW Australia

http://www.taloncs.com.au

If it ain't broke, fix it until it is....