Competing against Borland Database Engine..

#21

yes, agreed.. I did mention the word "future-ware" elsewhere in this thread.
I try to avoid talking too much about what is coming until I have a demo of
a prototype version up and running....

I've come across other claims they have made for the product (particularly
with interfaces with third party systems) which are actually "we are
developing".. rather than "we have installed at customers now"...

Regards
Simon
"Luke Webber" <luke (AT) webber (DOT) com.au> wrote

Quote:

Simon Verona wrote:
Agreed... the company in question tends to sell futureware as well...
G

I think using jBASE we can have database independence should a specific
customer really want it. It looks to me that mySQL will be the database
of choice for the product in the future, which certainly seems to have a
few holes that can be picked if necessary.

I don't think that the database issue is massive, but every little helps
when you're in a competitive sale!

One thing that made me laugh out loud was the casual mention on the
website of their faint hope that they can be database independent. They
reckon they can do the MySQL thing and still also do SQL Server, or DB2 or
whatever. That might be possible if they were using and ORM of some kind,
but it they are, they've apparently forgotten to mention it.

I suspect that they're in the place I occupied about ten years ago. Not
really knowing any specific SQL databases, and not truly aware of the
yawning chasms that separate one from the other. Thinking that they can
port to one SQL DB and then gradually extend their reach to various
others. The word for that is "naive". Though "pig ignorant" fits just as
well. <g

Luke

#22

Simon Verona wrote:

Quote:

Web site is under redesign at the mo!! We are currently revamping all of
our literature etc. as well as product.

I should have been clear that your corporate web site was fine and not
the reason I piped up. Trying to find it by tracing you with the
e-mail address you have used in business settings (e.g. jBASE list) was
how I landed on the personal site first.

That's amazing that you have been working in Pick since you were 13.
Maybe that would be a good marketing strategy for the Pick community --
we could bring it in to Middle & High Schools. Cheers! --dawn

#23

Thanks Jeff

Historically, we've sold most of our systems through recommendations, word
of mouth, the rest by continual direct mail. We've therefore been very
informal in the way we "marketing" and have not worried too much in the past
if we've not gotton the business.

But times change... We are still in the envious position that maintenance
from existing customers pays all the bills and generates some profit, but we
don't want to become complacent - the market is getting tougher and we need
to increase our customer base... So we have to get better... better at
marketing, better at selling, better in terms of handling competition etc...

Ironically, the only thing that hasn't changed is the product!

I'm not a sales and marketing guy - I'm a techie ... but needs must...

Regards
Simon

"Jeff Caspari" <FDFDFDFD (AT) sneakernet (DOT) com.invalid> wrote

Quote:

Hi Simon,

I certainly don't know you however I can tell by the way you are handling
all of the feedback (many people would have reacted defensively) that you
are a capable and confident (young) man. I am willing to bet you will
come
out on top, if not in this particular situation then in your career.

Our company sells a Laboratory Information System. We have always
stressed
our support. We stop at nothing to make our clients successful. We will
go
on sales calls with our clients (to doctors) to help them close business,
usually at no charge. All of our altruism seems to come back to us
through
word of mouth, customer loyalty and peripheral projects.

Congratulations on your methods and anticipated success.

Jeff

#24

"dawn" <dawnwolthuis (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote

Quote:

Simon Verona wrote:
Web site is under redesign at the mo!! We are currently revamping all
of
our literature etc. as well as product.

I should have been clear that your corporate web site was fine and not
the reason I piped up. Trying to find it by tracing you with the
e-mail address you have used in business settings (e.g. jBASE list) was
how I landed on the personal site first.

That's amazing that you have been working in Pick since you were 13.
Maybe that would be a good marketing strategy for the Pick community --
we could bring it in to Middle & High Schools. Cheers! --dawn

I know that jBASE have had some success in "selling" jBase as teaching

material in colleges/university in the past... Historically, that's always
been the way that products gained acceptance in the past. It's the reason
that car companies do cheap deals for Driving Schools etc.

I scare myself sometimes that at the tender (well ok - maybe that's pushing
it a little) age of 35 I've been working with MV products for nearly 2/3rds
of my life....

I have Clive Sinclair to thank for the fact that I'm into computers at
all... My first computer was bought for my 10th birthday - a ZX80 - which
IIRC had a Z80 processor running at a pathetic 1 mhz and 1kb of ram... It
was amazing what you could do in 1kb of ram (it certainly taught you some
bad programming habits - like using very short variable names!).

Unfortunately, I was "ahead of the curve" when it came to being taught
computers at school. The BBC Micro from Acorn (which was the school
standard here in the UK) was introduced in 1982/83. Unfortunately, the
teachers had no idea what to do with them, whereby by that time I already
owned one and had a couple of years programming experience.

I find it fascinating to go back to my kids school now and see how computers
are being used... Every classroom has a PC, projector, electronic
white-board. Teaching methodology has moved on in 20 years! My
daughter (14) has recently been to lessons teaching her database theory -
unfortunately with Access!! I still see the same problem in the classroom
though - whereby the teacher knows little more than the students he is
teaching!!!

I'm rambling now ! I've not a clue what relevance any of this has to the
subject... I guess I'm just getting nostalgic!

Simon

#25

Luke Webber wrote:

Quote:

Speaking of Microsoft, I've been having a play with C# lately and I'm
extraordinarily underwhelmed so far. All these bloody square-bracket
meta-commands remind be of the old Microsoft assemblers. I no like!

Oh please Luke! You're a Java guy - don't get all huffy about
[Attribute] metadata when for years Java has used BeanInfo and other
more complex out-of-line methods to do the same function. Annotations
were finally introduced in JDK 1.5, adding the same functionality as
Attributes, and with equally weird syntax - do those bloody @sign
meta-commands remind you of old Microsoft assemblers too?

Where Java Reflection is more "introspection", .NET Reflection allows
what's called Dynamic Invocation to change existing types or create
new types and IL (bytecode) at runtime. (For Pickies, this is sort of
like using one Pick BASIC program to read the object code of another
existing program, modifying one of the internal subs, then calling to
the sub to process data without writing the object back to the Dict.)
You need some sort of syntax for class members if you're going to do
this - personally I think the syntax for VB.NET is even worse. If
you're not using Reflection (and I'm sure you're not) then you may
only have one or two of those [Attributes] in your code - and those
are generated if you're using any IDE!

Take your own advice bud:

Quote:

we live in a glass hous. Put the brick _down_. <g

I'm sure you can find other nits to pick, this isn't one of them.

T

#26

Luke Webber wrote:

Quote:

Odd that VB
uses angle brackets, while C# uses square brackets, but it's all just
too damned ugly.

Umm, they're two completely separate languages with different syntax.
Don't look for similarities except in the set of libraries to which
they both have access. Remember, there are over 30 languages
supporting the framework now, I'm sure any individual will be unhappy
with syntactical conventions in a great many of the languages.

VB people have issues with curly braces and semicolons too - go
figure.

T

#27

"dawn" wrote:

Quote:

P.S. And, yes, my daughter already told me that if you google me you
get the dbdebunk sites that try to trash me. They get more traffic
than other sites with my name, so those rise to the top. One of the
pages has someone calling me "infamous." Ah well -- I showed such
promise as a child.

Dawn- at least you aren't at the top of Google's list when someone
looks up the word 'failure'. Try it.

Simon, I think all the ammunition you need is on this page:
http://www.bdesupport.com/faq.htm
Be sure to see popup window with limitations, and link to Borland.com
page on "Future of BDE" by John Kaster. It's made very clear that BDE
was limited in its time and is now a dead product, along with local
table support for Paradox and dBASE.

Nick, I was thinking about this notion of comparing BDE to .NET. As
part of my effort on the book "C#Builder Kick Start" I used the BDP to
access a couple databases - I was wondering if there was some sort of
..NET wrapper for BDE that allowed it to do the same thing. Sure
enough, as recently as 2004 there was a BDE.NET. I have no idea if it
is supported or by whom, or if someone using BDE would have anything
to gain by switching to it to get that .NET moniker for marketing.
See:
http://bdn.borland.com/borcon2004/ar...,32164,00.html

HTH
T

#28

Tony Gravagno wrote:

Quote:

Luke Webber wrote:

Speaking of Microsoft, I've been having a play with C# lately and I'm
extraordinarily underwhelmed so far. All these bloody square-bracket
meta-commands remind be of the old Microsoft assemblers. I no like!

Oh please Luke! You're a Java guy - don't get all huffy about
[Attribute] metadata when for years Java has used BeanInfo and other
more complex out-of-line methods to do the same function.

BeanInfo? Those are only necessary to provide graphical representations
and classification info about a JavaBean for display in a RAD tool. I've
only written about two of them in my life, and that was way back in my
Visual Cafe days.

Quote:

Annotations
were finally introduced in JDK 1.5, adding the same functionality as
Attributes, and with equally weird syntax - do those bloody @sign
meta-commands remind you of old Microsoft assemblers too?

Not really. I use Java Annotations, but only to provide metadata for the
Hibernate ORM, which is an incredibly slick feature. You could write
plain old Java objects (POJOs) for your entire life without ever needing
to use an annotation, whereas with .NET you only need them if you want
to actually /use/ the code. In Java, I've never had to create a GUID,
but in C#, I'm shelling them out like peas. Bah!

Worse still, I find I need to define each of my classes twice (one thing
I always hated about Delphi, BTW), once as a COM interface and once as a
C# native class! And each of those needs its own GUID and other
attributes. Humbug!

Oh, and guess what else? The online docs and MSDN are utterly useless
for providing information on this stuff in any useful form. Speaking of
which, when did MSDN get so slow and bloated? Searching for a simple
term takes so long that I've just about given up on the thing, though I
have the entire documentaion base loaded on a local hard disk. Just
bloody lovely.

Quote:

Where Java Reflection is more "introspection", .NET Reflection allows
what's called Dynamic Invocation to change existing types or create
new types and IL (bytecode) at runtime. (For Pickies, this is sort of
like using one Pick BASIC program to read the object code of another
existing program, modifying one of the internal subs, then calling to
the sub to process data without writing the object back to the Dict.)

And this is a Good Thing? Why?

Quote:

You need some sort of syntax for class members if you're going to do
this - personally I think the syntax for VB.NET is even worse. If
you're not using Reflection (and I'm sure you're not) then you may
only have one or two of those [Attributes] in your code - and those
are generated if you're using any IDE!

Nope. I'm planning to use Visual Studio to create a class library for
use in an ASP webapp, and I'm having to code all the attributes by hand.

Quote:

Take your own advice bud:

we live in a glass hous. Put the brick _down_. <g

I'm sure you can find other nits to pick, this isn't one of them.

Ah, but it is. For all the reasons given above.

I'll toss out one crumb or grudging praise though. The object pooling
mechanisms provided via the ObjectPooling and AutoComplete attributes is
really quite nice. I just hope it works as advertised.

Luke

#29

Luke,

I suspect that coming from a JAVA perspective, you are being a little harsh
on .NET. Like all things it's all what you get used to!

The more I use .net, the more stunned about how simple and powerful it can
be... Like all things, it has it's idiosyncracies and yes, finding out
information can be difficult (but this reflects the sheer size of the
framework libraries etc) but no worse than finding out info on web design,
java ...

For example, I had to write some code to display an RSS feed on a windows
form. I decided to convert the XML RSS feed into a dataset and use it
there. I thought I was going to need quite a few lines of code, but it
turned out to be a single line!!!! Using XML in .net is a doddle, even for
a poor databasic guy like me!

..Net does have a steep learning curve. Some of this is because it
initially looks quite simple... but you can write horrible programs in .net
if you are not aware of all the techniques available.

Regards
Simon

"Luke Webber" <luke (AT) webber (DOT) com.au> wrote

Quote:

Tony Gravagno wrote:
Luke Webber wrote:

Speaking of Microsoft, I've been having a play with C# lately and I'm
extraordinarily underwhelmed so far. All these bloody square-bracket
meta-commands remind be of the old Microsoft assemblers. I no like!

Oh please Luke! You're a Java guy - don't get all huffy about
[Attribute] metadata when for years Java has used BeanInfo and other
more complex out-of-line methods to do the same function.

BeanInfo? Those are only necessary to provide graphical representations
and classification info about a JavaBean for display in a RAD tool. I've
only written about two of them in my life, and that was way back in my
Visual Cafe days.

Annotations
were finally introduced in JDK 1.5, adding the same functionality as
Attributes, and with equally weird syntax - do those bloody @sign
meta-commands remind you of old Microsoft assemblers too?

Not really. I use Java Annotations, but only to provide metadata for the
Hibernate ORM, which is an incredibly slick feature. You could write plain
old Java objects (POJOs) for your entire life without ever needing to use
an annotation, whereas with .NET you only need them if you want to
actually /use/ the code. In Java, I've never had to create a GUID, but in
C#, I'm shelling them out like peas. Bah!

Worse still, I find I need to define each of my classes twice (one thing I
always hated about Delphi, BTW), once as a COM interface and once as a C#
native class! And each of those needs its own GUID and other attributes.
Humbug!

Oh, and guess what else? The online docs and MSDN are utterly useless for
providing information on this stuff in any useful form. Speaking of which,
when did MSDN get so slow and bloated? Searching for a simple term takes
so long that I've just about given up on the thing, though I have the
entire documentaion base loaded on a local hard disk. Just bloody lovely.

Where Java Reflection is more "introspection", .NET Reflection allows
what's called Dynamic Invocation to change existing types or create
new types and IL (bytecode) at runtime. (For Pickies, this is sort of
like using one Pick BASIC program to read the object code of another
existing program, modifying one of the internal subs, then calling to
the sub to process data without writing the object back to the Dict.)

And this is a Good Thing? Why?

You need some sort of syntax for class members if you're going to do
this - personally I think the syntax for VB.NET is even worse. If
you're not using Reflection (and I'm sure you're not) then you may
only have one or two of those [Attributes] in your code - and those
are generated if you're using any IDE!

Nope. I'm planning to use Visual Studio to create a class library for use
in an ASP webapp, and I'm having to code all the attributes by hand.

Take your own advice bud:

we live in a glass hous. Put the brick _down_. <g

I'm sure you can find other nits to pick, this isn't one of them.

Ah, but it is. For all the reasons given above.

I'll toss out one crumb or grudging praise though. The object pooling
mechanisms provided via the ObjectPooling and AutoComplete attributes is
really quite nice. I just hope it works as advertised.

Luke

#30

Tony

The cheque is in the post!

Superb.. exactly what I was after.

It's another small little bullet to put in my salesmans pocket! Not major
(application compatabilities come first!) but it all counts!

Regards
Simon
"Tony Gravagno" <g6q3x9lu53001 (AT) sneakemail (DOT) com.invalid> wrote

Quote:

"dawn" wrote:
P.S. And, yes, my daughter already told me that if you google me you
get the dbdebunk sites that try to trash me. They get more traffic
than other sites with my name, so those rise to the top. One of the
pages has someone calling me "infamous." Ah well -- I showed such
promise as a child.

Dawn- at least you aren't at the top of Google's list when someone
looks up the word 'failure'. Try it.

Simon, I think all the ammunition you need is on this page:
http://www.bdesupport.com/faq.htm
Be sure to see popup window with limitations, and link to Borland.com
page on "Future of BDE" by John Kaster. It's made very clear that BDE
was limited in its time and is now a dead product, along with local
table support for Paradox and dBASE.

Nick, I was thinking about this notion of comparing BDE to .NET. As
part of my effort on the book "C#Builder Kick Start" I used the BDP to
access a couple databases - I was wondering if there was some sort of
.NET wrapper for BDE that allowed it to do the same thing. Sure
enough, as recently as 2004 there was a BDE.NET. I have no idea if it
is supported or by whom, or if someone using BDE would have anything
to gain by switching to it to get that .NET moniker for marketing.
See:
http://bdn.borland.com/borcon2004/ar...,32164,00.html

HTH
T