To: Tony Gravagno
Tony wrote:
Take a look at the InsertCore() routine with ILSpy. Trust me, it's an
embarassing mistake.

priced MV database product here>. mv.Net is a great product - it's just
not up to the kind of abuse I can put it to, especially when it requires a
latency adding middle-man server process.

writing software than I could stop breathing. I can't NOT write software.
It's just the way I'm wired. If someone benefits from the code I produce,
great. If not, I really don't care. It's going to be written either way.

that with a theoretically small number of shops that are both upgrading to v9
AND working with .Net applications and your potential audience ain't that
big. I need to shove harder to get them to create a version that is compatible
with Silverlight though - I could really leverage that to good advantage on
my production floor processes.

I don't get the whole ADO.Net thing - that's designed to work with SQL type
data and (at least from where I sit) is fairly useless with MV datasets.
I will admit that using DataTables are a better way to add data to a grid
than the old AddItem() method of days gone by.

g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
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Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
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holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
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"Gene Buckle" wrote:

I trust. I've seen and reported a couple other bugs that are similar
to the one you found.


Ultimately I think you'll come to see it my way on this...

MVSP is a basic connectivity library. That's how they're advertising
it. It's not supposed to be anything revolutionary, just the modern
evolutionary replacement for D3CL. As I see it, wasn't intended to be
much more than the obligator vendor-provided interface for that small
number of shops you mention. What's Very cool about it is that there
is both a .NET and a Java library, which responds to a lot of those
Linux-centric questions. But aside from that it's mostly just some
braindead but entirely adequate static classes.

I'm glad MVSP now exists. It's a good starting point for people who
want to learn .NET or Java, for someone who just wants free and simple
connectivity, or for people like us who might want to provide a free
or low-cost utility without a $260 surcharge for a connectivity
license. But for anything beyond the basics we just need something
more. That's where mv.NET picks up. I'm sure that sounds like a
sales pitch to people here, but as just another guy in the crowd, I'm
just telling ya that this is where my decision process takes me. YMMV


I'll bet ya a Starbuck's mocha that you're not going to see
Silverlight integration from them. You said yourself the market is
almost too small just for uptake of the basic library. Not only is
Silverlight connectivity much more sophisticated, requiring much more
client/server development to make that work transparently, but the
number of people who would want to use it so far is tiny. Heck, TL
hasn't even implemented a basic mvItem class. Everything is string or
object. They have a long way to go just on the basic lib before
moving on to Silverlight - though I don't think this is the direction
in which they want to go.

Again, not trying to sound like a surrogate here, but mv.NET has had
Silverlight built-in for a while, and from my perspective only serious
larger shops are even interested. Silverlight integration is free in
mv.NET. Communications underpinnings, a XAML Wizard, and the business
objects code generator are all in there. The price of the software
hasn't changed in years and anyone who upgrades gets all of this at no
extra code. Even as a freebie I don't see uptake from the traditional
developer base.

What I'm saying is that the effort to implement these features is
huge, there's already a provider that does it competently at a low
cost, and TL by themselves doesn't have the market to justify
competing with a harmless third-party provider. They just want to
keep the core base happy and check the checkboxes. Yeah, they do .NET
and Java. Next!


mv.NET and UO.NET are intended for MV developers who understand
accounts, files, items, and callable subroutines. The ADO.NET libs in
both of these products are for .NET developers who don't know anything
about Pick, but need to see DataTables, Records, Columns, and Stored
Procedures. I have had clients who hire a .NET guy because it's too
tough to hire a Pick guy who also does .NET. Rather than training
them on Pick they just expose the DBMS in a way that makes sense to
the .NET guy. So now they can do databinding and exchanges with
relational systems without "foreign looking" code. I don't know a
single Pick guy, including myself, who uses the ADO.NET hooks on a
regular basis to get into the MV environment. But if someone asked me
to write an interface, and provide source, for some non-Pickie who
would later maintain my code - I'd use the ADO.NET mechanisms.
Similarly, if I needed to provide an encapsulated API to a non-Pickie,
and they needed to see a DataTable, it's dirt-simple with mv.NET to
say:
return myMvItemList.ToDataTable();
Poof, no loops to convert items to tables. (That said, I've created
my own extension libs to create different kinds of tables, datasets,
etc, but you get the idea...)

Anyway, different strokes for different folks. What I enjoy is that
these tools exist for us to discuss them - which is far better than
the alternative of no tools and/or no one to have the discussion.

Regards,
T

To: Tony Gravagno
Tony wrote:
fee for me to access data that I'm already paying someone else a per-seat fee
to access. Charging a per-seat fee for what boils down to a library is as
absurd as trying to price a compiler based on the number of programs they plan
on compiling with it. The second issue I have is the "server" in the middle.
All it does is add more network latency. I don't need connection pooling. I
don't _want_ connection pooling. What I need is eye-blistering speed.

They should take a look at how Infragistics, Leadtools and LMD do things.

I feel the need is there. I don't expect it would be too difficult to shoe
horn the existing MVSP code into a Silverlight compatible library.

able to offload all the heavy lifting on to the server via rule modules is a
huge win in my book. Then again, I look at things through the filter of being
an ERP geek.

*waves hands* Right here! Pick & .Net wrapped up in the same geektastic
package. *laughs*

Ahh, that makes sense. Now me, I'd be pushing the ADO.Net types to learn
Pick. If nothing else, it would help reduce the number of people dependant on
SQL. *huge grin*

Agreed. I'm debating on how nuts it would be to build a version of MVSP in
Delphi XE. THAT would scream. You can't beat a native compiler.

g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
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To: Tony Gravagno
Tony wrote:
required session pooling in order to maximize the seats I've got at the D3
end, I'd certainly look at mv.Net again.

don't do much towards getting the tasks I need done, done. Sure, mvItem
would be nice to have, but the overhead in both price & latency isn't
worth the hassle. If I _really_ have to have what mvItem does, I can write
that myself. I write software that supports manufacturing, accounting and
logistic processes. My user base is small (~250 users) and not only
technically competent, but pretty demanding as well. They deserve the
absolute best I can give them and building fast systems is part of that.

but network latency. Are the developers you're talking to targeting
the browser or are they writing thick and "medium" clients?

vendors wouldn't have to use "unpopular" models if they were doing a hell
of a lot more to promote the uptake of MV in general. They need to do
more than go "MultiValue is better than SQL!" They need to shove that fact
into peoples' faces all the time and never let up. Otherwise, they're going
to be dead in another decade. I think the only one that has a chance is
Ladybridge and that's because they're in a great position to help those that
are left high & dry by the death of a primary vendor and are in dire need of
a best-of-breed replacement.

protocol itself. It would work well in an Intranet-only situation which is
what I'd be working with.

of WinForms. The NetAdvantage Silverlight controls makes it pretty painless.



g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
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"Gene Buckle" wrote:

I haven't had a single request for a thick or even medium-thick client
for years. Everyone wants thin client. Of course that means chatty
AJAX which can degrade some performance so I'm compelled to make up
for it with some scripting. There's a constant dance in there to
ensure the environment is performant, maintainable, and cross-browser
capable.

Since everyone I talk to wants thin-client with a browser UI, we
rarely have any idea of how many "users" there will be. This throws
traditional per-seat counts out the window. So we try to keep every
postback or AJAX hit tiny so that we can process through them as fast
as possible. With a single DBMS license and corresponding mv.NET
license we can frequently get a realistic 5:1 throughput. As we add
more DBMS and mv.NET licenses the load gets spread out and we can get
closer to 20:1. So with a non-pooled environment like this, you might
need 20 DBMS licenses to process maybe 60 users. While I might only
need 3 DBMS licenses plus 3 mv.NET licenses for the same load. If you
Don't allocate those 20 licenses to handle the 60 users, you're going
to incur some serious network latency as more people back up in line
to process on fewer lines. It's the old grocery store checkout line
scenario - "aisle 3 is open, I can help you over here". These
numbers are admittedly contrived but I think the scaling factor is
fairly consistent. The bottom line is that most sites can save a lot
of money with pooling.

Again, for anyone concerned about DBMS vendors surviving this, the
bottom line is that they keep sites that can operate economically and
they lose sites that cannot. Everyone needs to work harder to produce
the same revenue we produced from DBMS licenses a decade ago but DBMS
vendors seem to think they're going to get the same sales counts using
the same licensing model they used in the 1980's.

Honestly I haven't seen a single site reduce their DBMS license count
after adding a GUI, though this is usually the goal from the start.
What we see is that sites add a few DBMS licenses to support external
GUI/BUI users while keeping most internal people on the CUI. As
described, the licensing costs for this are relatively painless, and
sites gladly purchase a few more licenses than to migrating to Oracle
or some other platform. After all of this rhetoric, that's really how
I see this play out in almost all situations. Gene, you're just a
rebel.




I wrote my above notes before I read your note here so you see we're
in agreement about vendor responsibility.

However, while I agree that QM is a great platform, I'd submit that
all of the MV providers are eager and capable of migrating competing
systems. Best-of-breed once again depends on requirements.
Personally, for small projects I like QM but for larger ones I'm
inclined toward the larger providers, and the selection of which
provider is dependent on my technical requirements.


(Looks like Google or some other system in the middle doesn't speak
french, that was "fac'ade/proxy class" with a non-english 'c'. )


Hmm, I'd check with TL to see if they've tried MVSP in Silverlight.
The modest requirements of that small library might not need more
than what's available in that environment.

If they say it won't work then you're talking about reverse-
engineering the wire protocol. You really don't want to go there.
Just create a proxy and wire it up yourself.

Since you're talking about creating a D3CL wrapper anyway, just do
that but rather than hardcoding MVSP into the implementation, abstract
out the connector piece so that you can use MVSP locally OR proxy over
to a server. I've already done something like that. I have a single
library that I use for connectivity with MVSP, mv.NET, QMClient, and
SSH without an underlying library. I code to my interface, not
theirs. In your case you'd code to D3CL, and you'd be able to swap
out the comms layer for whatever you want later, at any tier.


In some cases it is but in others not. If you're maintaining state
with a rich set of classes you probably don't want all of that data in
the client, and from a DBMS access perspective you may not want to
expose your DBMS to a direct connection from a remote client anyway.
So many Silverlight solutions are client/server implementations where
the client proxy accepts requests which are transparently forwarded to
the server for processing.

I should say I am FAR from being a Silverlight expert so I'm nearing
my limits on implementation details here. From my perspective, from
v1 to v3 Silverlight has been a moving target and inadequate for true
RIA as we would expect for our apps. Only in v4 does it now seem
robust enough, and of course in the latest version there have been
paradigm changes to make all that possible. So I'm seriously behind
the curve, but still capable of keeping my end up to this point.


There ya go, an example of 'you get what you pay for'. MVSP is basic
connectivity for free. If you want a "pretty painless" experience
with something more sophisticated like Silverlight, you will either
need to make or buy it.

"You can have it good, cheap, or fast - pick two."

T

To: Tony Gravagno
Tony wrote:
I can't get the same interface functionality as I can with a thick-client.
By using the Click-Once deployment offered by .Net, it eliminates the update
problems normally associated with thick-clients. Silverlight 4 offers me
a very good "Winforms" like experience and that's why I'm looking further
into it.

Mostly from things like:

Them: We need to do <foo> by <date>.
Me: Ok.
Them: <discussions about how they're going to do their bit>
Them: Gene, will you be able to do <foo> by <date>?
Me: I did it while you were talking about how you were going to do it.
Them: Wha?
Me: *huge grin*

They get annoyed when I tease them about their cryptic table names and length-
limited field descriptions.


writing your original in HTML so it includes the fancy characters. I have to
remove them in order to get tin to post the reply.

for QM.


g.


--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
--- Synchronet 3.15a-Win32 NewsLink 1.91
The Retro Archive - telnet://bbs.retroarchive.org