Hello.
I'm sorry in advance if this is the wrong group to post my questions. If
so, please point me in the right direction.

I'm just getting around to tinkering with MySql after years of completely
ignoring it while I learned programming and network administration. For
some reason, I just wanted to avoid putting yet another language in my head.
But now, I've been tinkering with an idea to store data and retrieve it on a
website, and have looked around for existing solutions (didn't want to make
a custom program if something already existed) and realized that the data
could get big. In that case, probably MySql is best.

I installed MySql to a machine in my office (sqlserver1) and I can access it
from web1 so I know the connections are ready. I then came home and
installed the MySql workbench 5.2 CE. That's when I realized how
complicated it could be. I had hoped that Workbench would make things easy,
but I guess I thought it would have a simple interface like MS Access does.
Like I said, I'm very new to data bases and in fact I only just got the
concept of "relational db's". So try not to laugh too much when I think in
terms of a toy such as MS Access. :-)

Is there any tool out there like Work Bench that has a simpler interface?
Something a little more basic so I can get on with learning about MySql
without having to spend so much time learning the navigation structure of
the UI that's supposed to make it easier? Hate to say it, but at first
glance of the UI in Workbench, I think anyone in my shoes would be
overwhelmed enough to almost immediately give up.

I thank you for your time and any advise.
And as I said, if this is the wrong place, please be so kind as to point me
in the right direction.
-Dr.X (not a real doctor, don't even play one on tv

Dr.X wrote:
To be honest if you know programming and network admin you shouldnt have
a problem.

But what yo have to realise is that mysql is a system tool, not a suer
application.

If you install - say - php and phpmyadmin you will at least be able to
administer the thing via a GUI of sorts. I use webmin my self.

BUT the question must be asked as to how you intend to get data in and
out of the database? both really require some form of forms design or
programming in another language - C, PHP, perl, python or the like.

Mysql is a very good chassis indeed, but it comes without a dashboard or
controls. Access is a completely rubbish chassis, but a very pretty
dashboard and controls.

Also, is it not possible for access to use a mysql DBMS? I thiught there
was a way.

I have to say I abandoned Access because although easy things were very
easy, nothing else was.

Mysql easy things are hard, but really hard things are only a little bit
harder.

I suggest you say more about exactly what you are trying to do, and see
what tools may help smooth the path, but really, its never going to be
an ice rink..

On 20-03-2011 19:33, Dr.X wrote:

For start i would recommend you to learn SQL
i.e. http://www.sqlcourse.com, or Google for another SQL - course

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=mysql+courses+online


I think you can access a MySQL with MS Access, when using ODBC, but i've
never tried, because i never needed that

--
Luuk

On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 21:14:09 +0100, Luuk <Luuk (AT) invalid (DOT) lan> wrote:

Thanks for the link Luuk. It looks like it's exactly what I need.

Yes, I beleive you're right about access being able to connect to sql.
I will be looking into that since access seems to be installed on
every office machine i've encountered.

Thanks again for the reply. This is gonna be fun!
-Dr.X

On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 19:12:55 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp (AT) invalid (DOT) invalid> wrote:

I have just downloaded the webmin files and started to study. Thanks!

Right. That is what I had hoped the work bench would help me with, but
I think I was wrong about that. I already thought of just writing a
user interface in C and have a friend wright another interface for
web. We're still discussing it.

Without a dashboard is what I am used to, but I have to keep in mind
that these databases will not be for my own use, but the use of others
that are not going to be willing to learn much more than a click here
and a drag there. It's looking more and more like I will have to write
it from the ground up to make things easier on the end user.

Good question. As I said, I'm completely new to sql, so I never
investigated the possability. That might be a good solution since
almost every office worker on earth has some version of Access at
their disposal.

I hardly ever use it myself since I never had a need before now to set
up a database. All my other needs were much more basic in terms of
data storage and retrieval.

I don't think it should be super easy. If it were, you DB Gurus
wouldn't be worth paying :-D

I have 3 people needing 3 seperate databases for their own use (and
one for me to play with). The 3 are completely unrelated.

One needs to tack customers in a standard meathod (ie keep contact
info, invoicing and such much like all the examples found around the
net.)

The other two want to display info that they had entered in their db,
but display it on their web site. One is using an apachie web server
and scripts using PHP, the other is using IIS with ASP. I believe ASP
is sufficient to query the sql server (already know apachi'es
capabilities).

The two later would like stand alone entry forms inaccessable from the
web (a desk top method of entering new data to the db), while the
first wants NO web access as they do not have a need for it (good
idea, less surface area to attack security wize).

I believe I can accomplish all the desktop UI stuff in just ANSI C.
The web part will have to fall to my partner.

My real problem is to learn protocols and sql language to intigrate it
into the C code. It just seemed to me the Work Bench software should
have had some way to build a simple "dashbord" so you could pass it on
to the end users.

Also, for the sake of programming, I telneted to the server and
discovered it's not like all the other protocols I've written for.
I'll have to find a programming group to guide me on this one. I think
I'll need something like...

C Code UI


some sql translator/encryptor?, maybe a DLL file


sql server

Just so I can communicate with the sql server from my program. Eh..
details.

Another reply in this thread told me to checck out a coarse. Looks
good and i'll do exactly that.

I thank you for your reply.

-Dr.X

Dr.X wrote:
I solved this by using a simple separate admin web area that needs a
name and password. Written in PHP. its also trivial to detect what IP
address is making a request, and divert to somewhere harmless if is
off-site.

My reasons for doing this was that since the server was in fact
headless, some sort of remote protocol was needed. Even if local why
reinvent the wheel? you have already gone to the hassle of learning e..
php to get the web site running. So use it for admin stiff as well.



This is the C API to mysql.
It has routines in library that take SQL statements and pass back
(pointers to ?) arrays of results.

If you want a quick and dirty hack to get running, use MySQL, apache and
PHP. PHP is more or less on a par with BASIC in terms of simplicity of
getting stuff working rapidly, and combined with HTML forms, is a very
quick way to lash up basic forms and the like. It's not a huge step from
C as a language. Its very well integrated with Mysql as well. And used
by more pople than C for these purposes.

What you essentially end up with is this

Browser (local or remote)
Apache server <-- add security at this level
PHP CGI forms <-- and add security here as well for admin. This is where
all the custom code goes.
Mysql PHP API library
Mysql database and engine






That will certainly help with actual SQL, but in practice, until and
unless you need to do something really complex, most of the work you are
likely to do consists of simple inserts, updates and select statements
alone.

Even a complex query is really easily discovered by a web search, or in
desperation ask here and far better men than me will know the answer,
But in my experience just one query forms the basis for several pages of
C or php, which is all about screen display and layout.

I.e. while you will need a modicum of SQL to get going, by far the
larger task is designing web forms, without too much assistance, that
run on PHP or similar.

On 3/20/2011 2:33 PM, Dr.X wrote:
First of all, this is a perfect newsgroup for your question. There is
no better

Next, ignore TNP. He's a well-known troll with no real programming
experience.

I agree with Luuk - you really need to learn SQL. Simple stuff is not
that hard (although, like with any language, advanced SQL can become
pretty complicated) and you'll be much better off in the long run.

You can use ACCESS to interface to MySQL, but the results are somewhat
less than satisfactory. You can only use those features which are
common to both, and cannot take advantage of the strengths of either.

You can do everything you want from the MySQL CLI; it has the added
advantage that it can accept an ASCII file of SQL statements. With it,
you can do about anything you want.

The workbench is OK for some thing, but I really don't use it much. I
find I can do almost anything the workbench does using the CLI, only
faster (but then I've been writing SQL for well over 20 years, so it's
pretty much second nature to me). There are other tools such as
PHPMyAdmin which make some things easier, but it really doesn't help you
in writing your own SQL (which you will need to do). I use it for some
admin functions and to test some SQL statements, but that's about all.
I don't use it as a regular maintenance tool, for instance.

Some suggestion; I hope they meet your needs.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex (AT) attglobal (DOT) net
==================

On 3/20/2011 9:45 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
Had a feeling. :-)

Well, troll or not, he did have some good advice on what to look for.
I'll keep an eye on him anyways :-D

Yes, I agree. I've been putting it off far too long. I know I need
those lessons and that is where I chose to start
(http://www.sqlcourse.com) and it looks pretty good.

Ok, I will look at all the solutions I can find on the net before
deciding to go with Access. I know there's got to be a better way than
using Access, just haven't found one yet that would be free and simple
to use for the end user.

Yes, I've been playing with the CLI since I installed the MySQL server.
It's quite fund doing that by the way. Finding little snippets on the
net and trying them out directly. That's how I learned all the other
protocols I know (smtp, pop, ftp, telnet and others). It helps me to
understand what really is being said to the server and seeing the
results immediately helps a great deal. It will make it much easier to
write a UI.

Your suggestions are greatly appreciated.

I have decided to tell the people that want this from me to go elswhere.
I believe my lack of experience in SQL could be a danger to them when
it comes to security and the integrity of their data. I still want to
learn it so that some day I can actually accept that sort of challenge.
So I will continue my research and learn the sql course on line and
keep experimenting with the MySQL server that I have at the office. I
am able to do that by remote but just curious, if I expose port 3306,
I'll be a sitting duck. Any suggestions? Obscure ports maybe? tunnels?

Thanks very much Jerry. As you said, this seems to be a great group to
get info.

-Dr.X

Dr.X wrote:
The troll is Jerry.

It is not that uncommon to expose the MySQL port to *your LAN*.
This is especially true if your SQL server and Web server would
otherwise have to be on the same machine, swapping each other and
slowing things down, and you need now or expect to need the performance
from using separate machines. Good practice would be to have a
firewall (no, I don't mean one running on a Windows system. It's
likely to be part of a Cisco router, and I don't mean one of those
home $50 routers.) between your LAN and the outside Internet, and
block incoming connections for MySQL from the outside. Http
connections would be allowed through to the public web server. This
same firewall would prevent anything claiming to be from your LAN
but coming *IN* from the outside Internet from getting in.

Note that it is possible to have MySQL restrict logins to a minimum
number of machines on your LAN. Use this feature. It is also
possible to have a MySQL login used by a web server grant only
read-only permissions to the MySQL tables for applications that
don't need to alter tables.

For advanced setups, like those that have to comply with credit-card
company rules, production systems and test systems have to be kept
separate even within your LAN. You won't need that for a while,
and you'll understand if you get certification on this topic.

Big boys who rent out *hosting* MySQL and web sites typically allow
MySQL to be accessed from the web site and a site where the user
can get an interactive (e.g. ssh) login (this site is probably also
the web site). Not from outside. A few may allow connections from
outside from specific IPs, usually with a lot of warnings they won't
be responsible for your data getting lost. Some big boys connect
one web server to one MySQL server by a separate ethernet cable,
and that's all the net connection the MySQL server has (partly,
this is to divide the traffic). The web server has two ethernet
ports.

Big boys who *use* MySQL but don't rent it out wouldn't think of
letting anyone else connect to it, simply on the grounds of
"user-friendly". They have problems with users who can't even
identify the keyboard to type in their credit card number. Can you
imagine them trying to tell users how to install a MySQL client on
their laptop/desktop? and how to get through ISP firewalls?