 | |
#21
 
| |||||
| |||||
|
Re: Modify a record? -
07-06-2009
, 04:23 PM
|
The "1984" was a reference to the book and to "big brother", and to the "intentions to not be a national identity number", which was explicit in the legislation. The system was introduced in the 1930's. |
unique around the time they started using it as a national identity
number, but the damage (issuing duplicate numbers) was already done.
Quote:
|
If we take a population of 350 million people, all having numbers, that |
Quote:
|
leaves only a factor or three in numbers. IOW, there are two numbers available from people who died for every one person still alive -- if we were to reuse the number. |
a life longer than the person holding it. For example, the widow might
be drawing survivor's benefits for 20 years.
Quote:
|
If we assume based upon life expectancy that currently about 5 million die each year, and it started 75 years ago, that means that about 375 million have been used by people who are now dead. Accounting for population growth over that time period, where the population was only about 100 million at inception, and so diving by about 2, that means that roughly some 200 million numbers have been used by people who are now dead. That still leaves about 450 million numbers that have never been used. |
That leaves about 547 million numbers not used yet.
I took the population in 1935 (127 million) and added all births
since then. That gives 389 million. What are the remaining 53 million
used for? I don't know, but possibilities include:
- immigrants
- taxpayer identification numbers used for corporations
- it overcounts people who died before getting a SSN (even though
people now get numbers at birth, many didn't from 1935-1960, but
only got one when they first got a job).
Quote:
|
Yes, there might need to be an upgrade someday. Can anyone say Y2K :-) ? |
300 digits, or perhaps 300,000 digits. Reasons include (a) making
it totally unreasonable for anyone to expect you to memorize it,
(b) making guessing a valid number very difficult, and (c) to make
clear the purpose of the SSN by having the sequence 666 present
several times in all of them. Perhaps memorizing your own SSN could
be made treason. And no, I think it's a BAD idea to encode things
like birth date, sex, race (whatever that is), or place of birth
into the number itself.
However, for database designers, the problem still remains: DUPLICATES
*WERE* ISSUED, you are not the identity police, so YOU CAN'T FIX
IT, and the database is expected to work anyway. This is going to
be a problem with any kind of ID issued by someone else you don't
control. So why not issue your own employee numbers, account
numbers, or whatever, and tie them to a SSN so the SSN isn't a
primary key?
#22
| |||
| |||
|
|
The "1984" was a reference to the book and to "big brother", and to the "intentions to not be a national identity number", which was explicit in the legislation. The system was introduced in the 1930's. They might have changed their mind about the SSN not being guaranteed unique around the time they started using it as a national identity number, but the damage (issuing duplicate numbers) was already done. If we take a population of 350 million people, all having numbers, that Recent population numbers for the United States are around 304 million. leaves only a factor or three in numbers. IOW, there are two numbers available from people who died for every one person still alive -- if we were to reuse the number. The SSA claims that they do not re-use numbers (yet). And a SSN can have a life longer than the person holding it. For example, the widow might be drawing survivor's benefits for 20 years. If we assume based upon life expectancy that currently about 5 million die each year, and it started 75 years ago, that means that about 375 million have been used by people who are now dead. Accounting for population growth over that time period, where the population was only about 100 million at inception, and so diving by about 2, that means that roughly some 200 million numbers have been used by people who are now dead. That still leaves about 450 million numbers that have never been used. The SSA claims on their web site that 442 million numbers have been issued. That leaves about 547 million numbers not used yet. I took the population in 1935 (127 million) and added all births since then. That gives 389 million. What are the remaining 53 million used for? I don't know, but possibilities include: - immigrants - taxpayer identification numbers used for corporations |
--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex (AT) attglobal (DOT) net
==================
#23
| |||
| |||
|
|
The "1984" was a reference to the book and to "big brother", and to the "intentions to not be a national identity number", which was explicit in the legislation. The system was introduced in the 1930's. They might have changed their mind about the SSN not being guaranteed unique around the time they started using it as a national identity number, but the damage (issuing duplicate numbers) was already done. If we take a population of 350 million people, all having numbers, that Recent population numbers for the United States are around 304 million. leaves only a factor or three in numbers. IOW, there are two numbers available from people who died for every one person still alive -- if we were to reuse the number. The SSA claims that they do not re-use numbers (yet). And a SSN can have a life longer than the person holding it. For example, the widow might be drawing survivor's benefits for 20 years. If we assume based upon life expectancy that currently about 5 million die each year, and it started 75 years ago, that means that about 375 million have been used by people who are now dead. Accounting for population growth over that time period, where the population was only about 100 million at inception, and so diving by about 2, that means that roughly some 200 million numbers have been used by people who are now dead. That still leaves about 450 million numbers that have never been used. The SSA claims on their web site that 442 million numbers have been issued. That leaves about 547 million numbers not used yet. |
THAT far off. YOU did the research. Nice going.
Quote:
|
I took the population in 1935 (127 million) and added all births since then. That gives 389 million. What are the remaining 53 million used for? I don't know, but possibilities include: - immigrants - taxpayer identification numbers used for corporations - it overcounts people who died before getting a SSN (even though people now get numbers at birth, many didn't from 1935-1960, but only got one when they first got a job). Yes, there might need to be an upgrade someday. Can anyone say Y2K :-) ? I would prefer that the new SSN be much larger - preferably at least 300 digits, or perhaps 300,000 digits. Reasons include (a) making it totally unreasonable for anyone to expect you to memorize it, (b) making guessing a valid number very difficult, and (c) to make clear the purpose of the SSN by having the sequence 666 present several times in all of them. Perhaps memorizing your own SSN could be made treason. And no, I think it's a BAD idea to encode things like birth date, sex, race (whatever that is), or place of birth into the number itself. |
Quote:
|
However, for database designers, the problem still remains: DUPLICATES *WERE* ISSUED, you are not the identity police, so YOU CAN'T FIX IT, and the database is expected to work anyway. This is going to be a problem with any kind of ID issued by someone else you don't control. So why not issue your own employee numbers, account numbers, or whatever, and tie them to a SSN so the SSN isn't a primary key? |
--
Shelly
#24
| |||
| |||
|
|
Gordon Burditt wrote: The "1984" was a reference to the book and to "big brother", and to the "intentions to not be a national identity number", which was explicit in the legislation. The system was introduced in the 1930's. They might have changed their mind about the SSN not being guaranteed unique around the time they started using it as a national identity number, but the damage (issuing duplicate numbers) was already done. If we take a population of 350 million people, all having numbers, that Recent population numbers for the United States are around 304 million. leaves only a factor or three in numbers. IOW, there are two numbers available from people who died for every one person still alive -- if we were to reuse the number. The SSA claims that they do not re-use numbers (yet). And a SSN can have a life longer than the person holding it. For example, the widow might be drawing survivor's benefits for 20 years. If we assume based upon life expectancy that currently about 5 million die each year, and it started 75 years ago, that means that about 375 million have been used by people who are now dead. Accounting for population growth over that time period, where the population was only about 100 million at inception, and so diving by about 2, that means that roughly some 200 million numbers have been used by people who are now dead. That still leaves about 450 million numbers that have never been used. The SSA claims on their web site that 442 million numbers have been issued. That leaves about 547 million numbers not used yet. I took the population in 1935 (127 million) and added all births since then. That gives 389 million. What are the remaining 53 million used for? I don't know, but possibilities include: - immigrants - taxpayer identification numbers used for corporations These have a completely different format. |
IDs (for businesses) have a different format. Immigrants, however, get
a social security number.
#25
| |||
| |||
|
|
Jerry Stuckle wrote: Gordon Burditt wrote: The "1984" was a reference to the book and to "big brother", and to the "intentions to not be a national identity number", which was explicit in the legislation. The system was introduced in the 1930's. They might have changed their mind about the SSN not being guaranteed unique around the time they started using it as a national identity number, but the damage (issuing duplicate numbers) was already done. If we take a population of 350 million people, all having numbers, that Recent population numbers for the United States are around 304 million. leaves only a factor or three in numbers. IOW, there are two numbers available from people who died for every one person still alive -- if we were to reuse the number. The SSA claims that they do not re-use numbers (yet). And a SSN can have a life longer than the person holding it. For example, the widow might be drawing survivor's benefits for 20 years. If we assume based upon life expectancy that currently about 5 million die each year, and it started 75 years ago, that means that about 375 million have been used by people who are now dead. Accounting for population growth over that time period, where the population was only about 100 million at inception, and so diving by about 2, that means that roughly some 200 million numbers have been used by people who are now dead. That still leaves about 450 million numbers that have never been used. The SSA claims on their web site that 442 million numbers have been issued. That leaves about 547 million numbers not used yet. I took the population in 1935 (127 million) and added all births since then. That gives 389 million. What are the remaining 53 million used for? I don't know, but possibilities include: - immigrants - taxpayer identification numbers used for corporations These have a completely different format. Jerry, loosen up. We are just having a little fun here. Yes, taxpayer IDs (for businesses) have a different format. Immigrants, however, get a social security number. |
Employer Id Numbers (EIN) for corporations. Those outside of the U.S.
(and many here in the U.S.) would take your statement to indicate the
EIN is the same format of an SSN. I'm just pointing out it is not.
--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex (AT) attglobal (DOT) net
==================
#26
| |||
| |||
|
|
sheldonlg wrote: Jerry Stuckle wrote: Gordon Burditt wrote: The "1984" was a reference to the book and to "big brother", and to the "intentions to not be a national identity number", which was explicit in the legislation. The system was introduced in the 1930's. They might have changed their mind about the SSN not being guaranteed unique around the time they started using it as a national identity number, but the damage (issuing duplicate numbers) was already done. If we take a population of 350 million people, all having numbers, that Recent population numbers for the United States are around 304 million. leaves only a factor or three in numbers. IOW, there are two numbers available from people who died for every one person still alive -- if we were to reuse the number. The SSA claims that they do not re-use numbers (yet). And a SSN can have a life longer than the person holding it. For example, the widow might be drawing survivor's benefits for 20 years. If we assume based upon life expectancy that currently about 5 million die each year, and it started 75 years ago, that means that about 375 million have been used by people who are now dead. Accounting for population growth over that time period, where the population was only about 100 million at inception, and so diving by about 2, that means that roughly some 200 million numbers have been used by people who are now dead. That still leaves about 450 million numbers that have never been used. The SSA claims on their web site that 442 million numbers have been issued. That leaves about 547 million numbers not used yet. I took the population in 1935 (127 million) and added all births since then. That gives 389 million. What are the remaining 53 million used for? I don't know, but possibilities include: - immigrants - taxpayer identification numbers used for corporations These have a completely different format. Jerry, loosen up. We are just having a little fun here. Yes, taxpayer IDs (for businesses) have a different format. Immigrants, however, get a social security number. I didn't say anything about immigrants. I was just referring to your Employer Id Numbers (EIN) for corporations. Those outside of the U.S. (and many here in the U.S.) would take your statement to indicate the EIN is the same format of an SSN. I'm just pointing out it is not. |
lines with the dash. A logical conclusion is that the "these" referred
to both immediately preceding lines. Also, *I* didn't write those two
lines, Gordon did.
All *I* ever talked about were Social Security numbers.
#27
| |||
| |||
|
|
I took the population in 1935 (127 million) and added all births since then. That gives 389 million. What are the remaining 53 million used for? I don't know, but possibilities include: - immigrants - taxpayer identification numbers used for corporations These have a completely different format. |
MUST be) used in place of an EIN.
How many databases in production use actually bother to store the
dashes of a SSN or EIN?
#28
| |||
| |||
|
|
Jerry Stuckle wrote: sheldonlg wrote: Jerry Stuckle wrote: Gordon Burditt wrote: The "1984" was a reference to the book and to "big brother", and to the "intentions to not be a national identity number", which was explicit in the legislation. The system was introduced in the 1930's. They might have changed their mind about the SSN not being guaranteed unique around the time they started using it as a national identity number, but the damage (issuing duplicate numbers) was already done. If we take a population of 350 million people, all having numbers, that Recent population numbers for the United States are around 304 million. leaves only a factor or three in numbers. IOW, there are two numbers available from people who died for every one person still alive -- if we were to reuse the number. The SSA claims that they do not re-use numbers (yet). And a SSN can have a life longer than the person holding it. For example, the widow might be drawing survivor's benefits for 20 years. If we assume based upon life expectancy that currently about 5 million die each year, and it started 75 years ago, that means that about 375 million have been used by people who are now dead. Accounting for population growth over that time period, where the population was only about 100 million at inception, and so diving by about 2, that means that roughly some 200 million numbers have been used by people who are now dead. That still leaves about 450 million numbers that have never been used. The SSA claims on their web site that 442 million numbers have been issued. That leaves about 547 million numbers not used yet. I took the population in 1935 (127 million) and added all births since then. That gives 389 million. What are the remaining 53 million used for? I don't know, but possibilities include: - immigrants - taxpayer identification numbers used for corporations These have a completely different format. Jerry, loosen up. We are just having a little fun here. Yes, taxpayer IDs (for businesses) have a different format. Immigrants, however, get a social security number. I didn't say anything about immigrants. I was just referring to your Employer Id Numbers (EIN) for corporations. Those outside of the U.S. (and many here in the U.S.) would take your statement to indicate the EIN is the same format of an SSN. I'm just pointing out it is not. Uh, look back. You used the word "these" was immediately after the two lines with the dash. A logical conclusion is that the "these" referred to both immediately preceding lines. Also, *I* didn't write those two lines, Gordon did. All *I* ever talked about were Social Security numbers. |
numberS used for corporations". Plural. Therefore, "these" is the
correct pronoun.
But I can see where it could have been confusing.
--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex (AT) attglobal (DOT) net
==================
#29
| |||
| |||
|
|
I took the population in 1935 (127 million) and added all births since then. That gives 389 million. What are the remaining 53 million used for? I don't know, but possibilities include: - immigrants - taxpayer identification numbers used for corporations These have a completely different format. But they still come out of the same number pool, and a SSN may be (sometimes MUST be) used in place of an EIN. |
an SSN cannot be used "in place if an EIN". However, a the owner of a
sole proprietorship can use his/her SSN instead of having to get a
separate EIN. An SSN cannot be used for a separate legal entity such as
a corporation or LLC.
Quote:
|
How many databases in production use actually bother to store the dashes of a SSN or EIN? |
leading zeros are important.
--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex (AT) attglobal (DOT) net
==================
#30
| ||||
| ||||
|
|
I took the population in 1935 (127 million) and added all births since then. That gives 389 million. What are the remaining 53 million used for? I don't know, but possibilities include: - immigrants - taxpayer identification numbers used for corporations These have a completely different format. But they still come out of the same number pool, and a SSN may be (sometimes MUST be) used in place of an EIN. No, they do not. Corporate EIN's have a format such as 55-123456. |
xxx-xx-xxxx and xx-xxxxxxx. The dashes being in different places
is unlikely to make a difference since nobody bothers to store them.
Quote:
|
And an SSN cannot be used "in place if an EIN". |
Quote:
|
However, a the owner of a sole proprietorship can use his/her SSN instead of having to get a separate EIN. |
if the EIN isn't available on time for the due date of the forms.
It still remains that there's a spot on a form that can be correctly
filled in with either an EIN or a SSN. Now, how do you tell the
difference without looking up the particular number involved? (And
if as you claim they are drawn from different number spaces, you
can't necessarily tell even then.) Don't count on the dashes to help you.
Quote:
|
An SSN cannot be used for a separate legal entity such as a corporation or LLC. How many databases in production use actually bother to store the dashes of a SSN or EIN? I never did. But I also store them as character strings because the leading zeros are important. |
Incidentally, there was an item on Slashdot yesterday titled "Social
Security Numbers Can Be Guessed", which indicates that the first 5
digits of the SSN can be guessed from birth date and birth place
with 44% accuracy (of a sample of 160,000 people, and on the first
try!) for people born between 1989 and 2003. I guess 1989 was the
first year they started requiring SSNs at birth.
 |
« Previous Thread
|
Next Thread »
| Thread Tools | |
| Display Modes | |
Linear Mode
| |
Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.