Re: repeat: New version of Access doesn't support Jet

#1

On May 2, 12:43*pm, "a a r o n . k e m p f @gmail.com [MCITP: DBA]"
<aaron.ke... (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote:

Quote:

http://visualstudiomagazine.com/arti...vb_using-light...

From my experimentation with the MVVM pattern, I note that Access
would struggle with the jury-rigging required to coerce dynamic
subforms to provide the same capability. I also note that the rigging
required by the MVVM pattern is much less obvious than with Access, at
least for the first few times. If the MVVM pattern capabilities are
not required, then Access will certainly be more RAD than
LightSwitch. Many VS developers are doing Access-like things in a
clumsy way. Having Access be able to use .NET in some way is very
desirable, but I don't know if LightSwitch or some kind of Access.NET
like that mentioned in the article is how things are really going to
shake out. Access has been wearing two hats. One hat is the template
driven cookie cutter that allows non-programmers to do some
interesting little apps. The other hat is an easy-to-program, easy-to-
customize development environment that can be grown into. Besides
taking a lot longer to program the same task, the jump from Access to
VS is wider than it looks. If LightSwitch starts out with managed
code, then its logical extension would be a jump to VS, not Access.
Access 2010 tried to keep the same two hats while putting on a third!
That is, it tried to add the third hat of becoming a RAD tool for the
web. I suppose that could be lumped in with the template driven
cookie cutter hat, but Access really does need a "separation of
concerns," in more ways than one. So perhaps LightSwitch is an
attempt to roll the easy-to-program, easy-to-customize development
environment hat into VS. The interop capabilities already built into
VS to ease the transition were more convincing than that argument.
What I'd like to see is a converter that takes an Access database
connected to SQL Server and creates a VS project with three tiers and
all the underlying managed code necessary to output the reports into
either a PDF file or a WPF format. That would be RAD :-). Then
Access could do what it does best.

James A. Fortune
CDMAPoster (AT) FortuneJames (DOT) com

#2

Mr. Kempf, I just wonder why you feel so compelled to denigrate Access that
you misrepresent facts, time after time. FYI, the answer to the title of
the article reference is "No, LightSwitch isn't the 'new Access'."
Microsoft has never represented it as such, much less as a "new version of
Access".

--
Larry Linson, Microsoft Office Access MVP
Co-author: "Microsoft Access Small Business Solutions", published by Wiley
Access newsgroup support is alive and well in USENET
comp.databases.ms-access

<aaron.kempf (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote

> http://visualstudiomagazine.com/arti...ghtswitch.aspx

#3

This tool from MS seems like a latecommer to the party. It also seems
that MS are pushing that department level apps be elevated to the same
'level' as enterprise apps, but should be built by non IT persons.
This leads me to think that the apps being built are probably no
different from those being done by amateurs in Access (for example)
and would need to be re-built by IT to be proper enterprise class apps
anyway. My guess is it is simply another pathway MS are creating to
try and have people move things to .Net.

I dont think its a good or bad thing, just a thing...

The Frog

#4

Access / Jet sucks balls old man. It is IMPOSSIBLE to make Jet perform
well in a multi-user environment.

On May 2, 4:09*pm, "Access Developer" <accde... (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote:

Quote:

Mr. Kempf, I just wonder why you feel so compelled to denigrate Access that
you misrepresent facts, time after time. *FYI, the answer to the title of
the article reference is "No, LightSwitch isn't the 'new Access'."
Microsoft has never represented it as such, much less as a "new version of
Access".

*--
* Larry Linson, Microsoft Office Access MVP
* Co-author: "Microsoft Access Small Business Solutions", published by Wiley
* Access newsgroup support is alive and well in USENET
comp.databases.ms-access

*<aaron.ke... (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote

http://visualstudiomagazine.com/arti...vb_using-light...

#5

It's a good thing-- anyhting to wean kids off of jet is worthwhile.

With lightswitch, they can natively use sharePoint, mySQL, Oracle--
anything that they want

On May 3, 12:26*am, The Frog <mr.frog.to.... (AT) googlemail (DOT) com> wrote:

Quote:

This tool from MS seems like a latecommer to the party. It also seems
that MS are pushing that department level apps be elevated to the same
'level' as enterprise apps, but should be built by non IT persons.
This leads me to think that the apps being built are probably no
different from those being done by amateurs in Access (for example)
and would need to be re-built by IT to be proper enterprise class apps
anyway. My guess is it is simply another pathway MS are creating to
try and have people move things to .Net.

I dont think its a good or bad thing, just a thing...

The Frog

#6

"James A. Fortune" wrote in message
news:21819a07-8c68-47d7-8a30-938fde64cce4 (AT) l6g2000vbn (DOT) googlegroups.com...

Quote:

If LightSwitch starts out with managed
code, then its logical extension would be a jump to VS, not Access.
Access 2010 tried to keep the same two hats while putting on a third!
That is, it tried to add the third hat of becoming a RAD tool for the
web.

In terms of access having support for sharepoint or now office 365, I think
we have a far better play in this regards.

All be the first to admit that it with access web services, having to adopt
sharepoint is too high a price for the average access developer market.

However I'm playing with office 365 right now, and the results are really
wonderful. And with a small business package, it looks like we're gonna see
some really reasonable cost numbers.

Quote:

What I'd like to see is a converter that takes an Access database
connected to SQL Server and creates a VS project with three tiers and
all the underlying managed code necessary to output the reports into
either a PDF file or a WPF format. That would be RAD :-). Then
Access could do what it does best.

Well first of all the last two versions of access does have native reprots
to PDF and does so without a pdf printer driver. So PDF support is now built
into Access.

And for Access web services, when you publish an access form to the web, you
are winding up with a three tier system. The code you write in a access web
form gets converted to JavaScript. These forms are I fact .net forms - they
are pure zammel forms (XAML).

When Access web reports are published they are converted into RDL and then
are rendered using SQL server reporting services. So the new version of
access is using all the latest technologies and bits and parts out of
Redmond to accomplish web publishing and web building in access 2010.

In fact the really issue or thing that I think as an Access community will
run into with regards to Access web development is the need for that easy
plug in extensibility to the web development environment that we've always
had on the desktop. To me this is the challenge, but also the key to the
future of access web version services. However with the announcement of
office 365, and the fact that it'll support access web services, we've at
least now crossed one bridge that will result in an easy and widespread
affordability for access web publishing.

And even if you don't use the new web publishing of Access in office 365,
the new offline or data cache mode for access 2010 means that I have a local
data cache anyway. This results in your application running at local desktop
speed, and in fact runs better than a split application with the network
involve. Any change to data occurs at local JET speed, and changes to that
data causes a synchronization request to the server side.

Results in many cases, is far better performance than SQL server and linked
tables, and in fact you can have an intermittent Internet connection, and
your application will still continue to run at full local desktop speed,
despite being in a distributed connected shared environment. And the real
beauty of this, is you don't have to go through all the pains and suffering
of learning some server type language or setup system like you do with SQL
server. And even better is, for the most part you don't need to do any
performance optimize Asians to existing applications.

--
Albert D. Kallal (Access MVP)
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
Pleasenospam_kallal (AT) msn (DOT) com

#7

"Albert D. Kallal" wrote in message
news:7xkwp.7153$HF3.5253 (AT) newsfe03 (DOT) iad...

Quote:

server. And even better is, for the most part you don't need to do any
performance optimize Asians to existing applications.

My apologies here, I was using voice dictation in the above should read:

And even better is, for the most part you don't need to do any
performance optimizations to existing applications

On the other hand if you read both of them aloud, they sound the same!

#8

On May 4, 6:35*pm, "Albert D. Kallal" <PleaseNOOOsPAMmkal... (AT) msn (DOT) com>
wrote:

Quote:

"James A. Fortune" *wrote in messagenews:21819a07-8c68-47d7-8a30-938fde64cce4 (AT) l6g2000vbn (DOT) googlegroups.com...

If LightSwitch starts out with managed
code, then its logical extension would be a jump to VS, not Access.
Access 2010 tried to keep the same two hats while putting on a third!
That is, it tried to add the third hat of becoming a RAD tool for the
web.

In terms of access having support for sharepoint or now office 365, I think
we have a far better play in this regards.

All be the first to admit that it with access web services, having to adopt
sharepoint is too high a price for the average access developer market.

However I'm playing with office 365 right now, and the results are really
wonderful. And with a small business package, it looks like we're gonna see
some really reasonable cost numbers.

I'm always interested in reasonable cost numbers. Keep us posted.

Quote:

What I'd like to see is a converter that takes an Access database
connected to SQL Server and creates a VS project with three tiers and
all the underlying managed code necessary to output the reports into
either a PDF file or a WPF format. *That would be RAD :-). *Then
Access could do what it does best.

Well first of all the last two versions of access does have native reprots
to PDF and does so without a pdf printer driver. So PDF support is now built
into Access.

Hopefully, everyone knows that PDF output is possible from Access.
I'd need PDF output from the hypothetical 'Access converted into VS
project'.

Quote:

In fact the really issue or thing that I think as an Access community will
run into with regards to Access web development is the need for that easy
plug in extensibility to the web development environment that we've always
had on the desktop. To me this is the challenge, but also the key to the
future of access web version services. However with the announcement of
office 365, and the fact that it'll support access web services, we've at
least now crossed one bridge that will result in an easy and widespread
affordability for access web publishing.

For web sites that really impress, I'm really liking the JQuery
capabilities that got added into VS. It's very exciting. I don't see
Access yet as a RAD web tool, but I'll certainly be taking a close
look at its web capabilities. Maybe MS will add JQuery to Access' web
tools in a future version?

James A. Fortune
CDMAPoster (AT) FortuneJames (DOT) com

#9

On May 6, 6:04*pm, "James A. Fortune" <CDMAPos... (AT) FortuneJames (DOT) com>
wrote:

Quote:

For web sites that really impress, I'm really liking the JQuery
capabilities that got added into VS. *It's very exciting. *I don't see
Access yet as a RAD web tool, but I'll certainly be taking a close
look at its web capabilities. *Maybe MS will add JQuery to Access' web
tools in a future version?

Now that I think of it, it's not hard at all to add JQuery to "web"
Access manually.

James A. Fortune
CDMAPoster (AT) FortuneJames (DOT) com

#10

<aaron.kempf (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote

Quote:

Access / Jet sucks balls old man. It is
IMPOSSIBLE to make Jet perform
well in a multi-user environment.

(1) Whether it does or not, Mr. Kempf, you are dodging the issue. You
claimed that LightSwitch is a "new version of Access", which it is not, thus
giving Yet Another Example of your not knowing whereof you speak.

(2) Within their size, number of users, and network limitations (all of
which are well-known for years), Access and Jet have, indeed, performed well
in multiuser environments. Anyone who would deem it "worthless" simply
because it is not (and is/was not intended to be) an enterprise level
database and UI combination is, at best, a dunderhead.

On May 2, 4:09 pm, "Access Developer" <accde... (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote:

Quote:

Mr. Kempf, I just wonder why you feel so compelled to denigrate Access
that
you misrepresent facts, time after time. FYI, the answer to the title of
the article reference is "No, LightSwitch isn't the 'new Access'."
Microsoft has never represented it as such, much less as a "new version of
Access".

--
Larry Linson, Microsoft Office Access MVP
Co-author: "Microsoft Access Small Business Solutions", published by Wiley
Access newsgroup support is alive and well in USENET
comp.databases.ms-access

aaron.ke... (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote

http://visualstudiomagazine.com/arti...vb_using-light...