Access Database rights question

#1

Hi,

We recently have a client that wants to send our entire Access 2003
database to another party for use in data mining. I don't think that
should be legal.

I think the database structure should be the property of our company
and should not be distributed to any other party outside of their
company and should be used exclusively by our product.

If they want, we could come up with data and reporting export modules
for them.

What do you think?

-paulw

#2

On 12/15/2010 1:26 PM, PW wrote:

Quote:

Hi,

We recently have a client that wants to send our entire Access 2003
database to another party for use in data mining. I don't think that
should be legal.

I think the database structure should be the property of our company
and should not be distributed to any other party outside of their
company and should be used exclusively by our product.

If they want, we could come up with data and reporting export modules
for them.

What do you think?

-paulw
Did you create a written license for their use of the software?

Do you provide the software to others or was it something custom
developed for this one client?

The larger your client and if they have in house legal, the more likely
you will prevail, unless you have a written or oral agreement allowing
them to do such.

If you custom developed the software for them, and no license agreement,
it could get messy. While you may prevail as to copyright ownership
(since your software is unlikely to meet the criteria of a "work made
for hire"), the real issue is your relation with the client and
potential for future work with them, which may go away if you press too
hard.

Just my non-lawyer thoughts.

Bob

#3

On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 12:26:05 -0700, PW
<emailaddyinsig (AT) ifIremember (DOT) com> wrote:

Quote:

We recently have a client that wants to send our entire Access 2003
database to another party for use in data mining. I don't think that
should be legal.

I think the database structure should be the property of our company
and should not be distributed to any other party outside of their
company and should be used exclusively by our product.

If they want, we could come up with data and reporting export modules
for them.

I am not a lawyer and I probably don't reside in your country.

But it seems to me that the data the client entered is theirs to do
with as they wish. The data structure isn't really that important.
If you were not an employee then the queries, forms, reports and VBA
modules belong to you and should not be redistributed by the client.

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Tony's Main MS Access pages - http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
Tony's Microsoft Access Blog - http://msmvps.com/blogs/access/
For a convenient utility to keep your users FEs and other files
updated see http://www.autofeupdater.com/

#4

Let me preface this by saying that I am not a lawyer, I don't give legal
advice, and none of the following should be construed to be legal advice.
The attorneys for whom I do work don't presume to develop database
applications and I don't presume to offer legal advice or services!

But, you can look up at the U.S. Copyright Office website the normal case
for copyright: Even if they paid you to develop that database, in the
absence of a written contract from you granting them ownership, it belongs
to you, and _you_ get to decide what is done with it. My _guess_ is that if
you made them go to court to clarify the rights to distributing the data
that (1) they would get the right to distribute the data, in the tables you
designed, but not the application to search and retrieve it, and (2) you'd
never get any more work from them, or from any company with whom they had
influence.

But, if you put significant work into the user interface, I think you could
reasonably expect some compensation from the other party for their use of
that part of your application. I suspect that you might make that "very
reasonable" if the first client paid you to develop it. (When I do "bespoke
system" development of that kind, I give the client non-exclusive rights to
distribute, make derivative apps, etc., -- everything except ownership,
which I retain, thus giving me the right to reuse all or part for other
clients -- so I don't face problems such as you describe).

If you didn't split the user interface / application part from a separate
database with the tables and data, then you "muddied the waters", as well as
exhibited design technique that was, er, well, "sloppy".

Larry Linson, Microsoft Office Access MVP

"PW" <emailaddyinsig (AT) ifIremember (DOT) com> wrote

Quote:

Hi,

We recently have a client that wants to send our entire Access 2003
database to another party for use in data mining. I don't think that
should be legal.

I think the database structure should be the property of our company
and should not be distributed to any other party outside of their
company and should be used exclusively by our product.

If they want, we could come up with data and reporting export modules
for them.

What do you think?

-paulw

#5

Larry, that is sound advice indeed. Copyright and IP is a tricky area
from what little I do understand. I met a lawyer once who specialised
in only copyright law, and the firm she worked for / with did the
same. She was one of the busiest people I have ever met. It is good to
know that people like that are there to do the heavy lifting for you.
I think most of us wouldnt even know where we could go wrong. You are
spot on Larry - start at the beginning and if you get stuck get a
lawyer.....

I never thought I would ever say 'get a lawyer....'

Cheers

The Frog

#6

On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 14:32:24 -0600, Bob Alston <bobalston9 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com>
wrote:

Quote:

On 12/15/2010 1:26 PM, PW wrote:
Hi,

We recently have a client that wants to send our entire Access 2003
database to another party for use in data mining. I don't think that
should be legal.

I think the database structure should be the property of our company
and should not be distributed to any other party outside of their
company and should be used exclusively by our product.

If they want, we could come up with data and reporting export modules
for them.

What do you think?

-paulw
Did you create a written license for their use of the software?

Yes, but I think we left this usage out.

Quote:

Do you provide the software to others or was it something custom
developed for this one client?

Others, about two hundred clients so far.

Quote:

The larger your client and if they have in house legal, the more likely
you will prevail, unless you have a written or oral agreement allowing
them to do such.

If you custom developed the software for them, and no license agreement,
it could get messy. While you may prevail as to copyright ownership
(since your software is unlikely to meet the criteria of a "work made
for hire"), the real issue is your relation with the client and
potential for future work with them, which may go away if you press too
hard.

Point taken. Our software is copywrited and usually customized a bit
for each client (sometimes a lot).

Quote:

Just my non-lawyer thoughts.

Bob

Thanks Bob!

-paul

#7

On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 14:45:44 -0700, Tony Toews
<ttoews (AT) telusplanet (DOT) net> wrote:

Quote:

On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 12:26:05 -0700, PW
emailaddyinsig (AT) ifIremember (DOT) com> wrote:

We recently have a client that wants to send our entire Access 2003
database to another party for use in data mining. I don't think that
should be legal.

I think the database structure should be the property of our company
and should not be distributed to any other party outside of their
company and should be used exclusively by our product.

If they want, we could come up with data and reporting export modules
for them.

I am not a lawyer and I probably don't reside in your country.

You live a long way from Montana USA Tony!

Quote:

But it seems to me that the data the client entered is theirs to do
with as they wish.

Totally agree.

Quote:

The data structure isn't really that important.
If you were not an employee then the queries, forms, reports and VBA
modules belong to you and should not be redistributed by the client.

Tony

My worries are that (maybe I am doing this backwards <g>) is that I
usually design the database structure first, then the front end so I
guess someone else could do the same.

-paulw

#8

On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 20:31:07 -0600, "Access Developer"
<accdevel (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote:

Quote:

Let me preface this by saying that I am not a lawyer, I don't give legal
advice, and none of the following should be construed to be legal advice.
The attorneys for whom I do work don't presume to develop database
applications and I don't presume to offer legal advice or services!

But, you can look up at the U.S. Copyright Office website the normal case
for copyright: Even if they paid you to develop that database, in the
absence of a written contract from you granting them ownership, it belongs
to you, and _you_ get to decide what is done with it. My _guess_ is that if
you made them go to court to clarify the rights to distributing the data
that (1) they would get the right to distribute the data, in the tables you
designed, but not the application to search and retrieve it, and (2) you'd
never get any more work from them, or from any company with whom they had
influence.

But, if you put significant work into the user interface, I think you could
reasonably expect some compensation from the other party for their use of
that part of your application. I suspect that you might make that "very
reasonable" if the first client paid you to develop it. (When I do "bespoke
system" development of that kind, I give the client non-exclusive rights to
distribute, make derivative apps, etc., -- everything except ownership,
which I retain, thus giving me the right to reuse all or part for other
clients -- so I don't face problems such as you describe).

If you didn't split the user interface / application part from a separate
database with the tables and data, then you "muddied the waters", as well as
exhibited design technique that was, er, well, "sloppy".

Larry Linson, Microsoft Office Access MVP

It is a product that we designed and developed and came up with
ourselves which we now customize for each client (usually) and sell.
The front end and back end are split.

Thanks Larry,
-paul

Quote:

"PW" <emailaddyinsig (AT) ifIremember (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:1b5ig6hvs1ata6h64h693errhrgvrssbq4 (AT) 4ax (DOT) com...
Hi,

We recently have a client that wants to send our entire Access 2003
database to another party for use in data mining. I don't think that
should be legal.

I think the database structure should be the property of our company
and should not be distributed to any other party outside of their
company and should be used exclusively by our product.

If they want, we could come up with data and reporting export modules
for them.

What do you think?

-paulw

#9

"PW" <emailaddyinsig (AT) ifIremember (DOT) com> wrote

Quote:

It is a product that we designed and
developed and came up with our-
selves which we now customize for
each client (usually) and sell.
The front end and back end are split.

Thanks Larry,

Looking back, it might seem that I was implying poor technique, but that
wasn't my intent, just to comment on "monolithic databases" being harder to
deal with in your situation.

Seems you are in a good position to start from "It's your data, so, of
course, you can provide it to someone else." Then you can decide if you want
to pursue some compensation for the table design, or, if you suggest that
you confer with the "someone else" to see if a different configuration would
be better for their purposes (as it likely would for "data mining") and what
data format they would want.

Good luck in working out a satisfactory solution.

Larry Linson, Microsoft Office Access MVP

#10

On Tue, 21 Dec 2010 11:36:59 -0700, PW
<emailaddyinsig (AT) ifIremember (DOT) com> wrote:

Quote:

You live a long way from Montana USA Tony!

Hmm, Alberta borders on Montana although I'm about 400 miles away from
the nearest part so not too bad.

Quote:

My worries are that (maybe I am doing this backwards <g>) is that I
usually design the database structure first, then the front end so I
guess someone else could do the same.

Yeah, but table structures aren't that noteworthy. I suspect many
of the denizens of this newsgroup would design the same basic tables
and fields for a standardish app. The names would also bear a
certain amount of resemblance.

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Tony's Main MS Access pages - http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
Tony's Microsoft Access Blog - http://msmvps.com/blogs/access/
For a convenient utility to keep your users FEs and other files
updated see http://www.autofeupdater.com/