[Info-Ingres] Ingres v Mysql

#21

"Jerry Stuckle" <jstucklex (AT) attglobal (DOT) net> wrote

Quote:

toby wrote:
On Jan 16, 8:10 am, Jerry Stuckle <jstuck... (AT) attglobal (DOT) net> wrote:
Willem Bogaerts wrote:
how about this bunch, they should be enthusiastic......
Well, I actually took the effort and looked at the site, curious as to
what the differences are with other databases. Other than some hollow
market speak, I found exactly 1 thing: Kerberos authentication. Can't
say I ever needed it, but it could be useful. What's the big hype?
So my enthusiasm was gone pretty fast.
Best regards,
I wouldn't say that, Willem. I used Ingres several years ago, and it's
a decent RDBMS. Like any other RDBMS, depending on what you're doing,
it may perform better or worse than others.

It's a very nice system, full featured, and well documented. I threw
it on to my Gentoo system a couple of years ago. The installation was
not difficult, but MySQL is going to be a simpler option for
inexperienced users.

True. I used Ingres for some non-web based apps; it worked nicely. But
when I needed a database for websites on shared hosts, most had MySQL, so
I went there.

I'm not aware of ANY web hosts that offer shared hosting with ingres. Are
there any?
Anyone here run ingres on a shared host?

Quote:

Now I'm using VPS's, but I load Debian on them which requires MySQL. So
I'm lazy and just use it instead of trying to keep two RDBMS's updated.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex (AT) attglobal (DOT) net
==================

#22

On Jan 16, 12:36 pm, Jerry Stuckle <jstuck... (AT) attglobal (DOT) net> wrote:

Quote:

toby wrote:
On Jan 16, 8:10 am, Jerry Stuckle <jstuck... (AT) attglobal (DOT) net> wrote:
Willem Bogaerts wrote:
how about this bunch, they should be enthusiastic......
Well, I actually took the effort and looked at the site, curious as to
what the differences are with other databases. Other than some hollow
market speak, I found exactly 1 thing: Kerberos authentication. Can't
say I ever needed it, but it could be useful. What's the big hype?
So my enthusiasm was gone pretty fast.
Best regards,
I wouldn't say that, Willem. I used Ingres several years ago, and it's
a decent RDBMS. Like any other RDBMS, depending on what you're doing,
it may perform better or worse than others.

It's a very nice system, full featured, and well documented. I threw
it on to my Gentoo system a couple of years ago. The installation was
not difficult, but MySQL is going to be a simpler option for
inexperienced users.

True. I used Ingres for some non-web based apps; it worked nicely. But
when I needed a database for websites on shared hosts, most had MySQL,
so I went there. Now I'm using VPS's, but I load Debian on them which
requires MySQL.

I'm not sure I understand why Debian "requires MySQL"?

Quote:

So I'm lazy and just use it instead of trying to keep
two RDBMS's updated.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstuck... (AT) attglobal (DOT) net
==================

#23

toby wrote:

Quote:

On Jan 16, 12:36 pm, Jerry Stuckle <jstuck... (AT) attglobal (DOT) net> wrote:
toby wrote:
On Jan 16, 8:10 am, Jerry Stuckle <jstuck... (AT) attglobal (DOT) net> wrote:
Willem Bogaerts wrote:
how about this bunch, they should be enthusiastic......
Well, I actually took the effort and looked at the site, curious as to
what the differences are with other databases. Other than some hollow
market speak, I found exactly 1 thing: Kerberos authentication. Can't
say I ever needed it, but it could be useful. What's the big hype?
So my enthusiasm was gone pretty fast.
Best regards,
I wouldn't say that, Willem. I used Ingres several years ago, and it's
a decent RDBMS. Like any other RDBMS, depending on what you're doing,
it may perform better or worse than others.
It's a very nice system, full featured, and well documented. I threw
it on to my Gentoo system a couple of years ago. The installation was
not difficult, but MySQL is going to be a simpler option for
inexperienced users.
True. I used Ingres for some non-web based apps; it worked nicely. But
when I needed a database for websites on shared hosts, most had MySQL,
so I went there. Now I'm using VPS's, but I load Debian on them which
requires MySQL.

I'm not sure I understand why Debian "requires MySQL"?

Well, Debian itself doesn't require MySQL, but it does assume MySQL is
installed. And there are a lot of packages which will prereq that.

Basically you can't do a whole lot with the Debian packages unless you
have MySQL installed.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex (AT) attglobal (DOT) net
==================

#24

Gary L. Burnore wrote:

Quote:

On Sat, 17 Jan 2009 18:47:34 -0800 (PST), toby
toby (AT) telegraphics (DOT) com.au> wrote:
[snip]
True. I used Ingres for some non-web based apps; it worked nicely. But
when I needed a database for websites on shared hosts, most had MySQL,
so I went there. Now I'm using VPS's, but I load Debian on them which
requires MySQL.
I'm not sure I understand why Debian "requires MySQL"?

It doesn't, but if you run the default install without excluding
things you don't need, a few of them expect to see mysql. Stuckie's
none too bright when it comes to security, so he doesn't understand
that one should not choose the default install and one should never
install applications one doesn't intend to use.

Replying to two things at once here; sorry. This divergence is really
at the heart of the issue, because it's important to differentiate
between commercial ownership/direction, technology, and what comes to be
accepted based on the combination of direction, technology, and "community".

While "community" in software is referred to nowadays almost exclusively
in terms of Open Source, there was certainly a community of software
users before there was Open Source as we know it today, i.e. the
combination of GNU and the Linux Kernel (or Free/Net/Open BSD (listed in
alphabetical, not preferential order

) and the ensuing technologies.

The "community" bundled LAMP (Linux, Apache, MySQL, PHP), not any
particular commercial entity, even though commercial entities did "jump
on the band wagon" once the inertia of the "LAMP Stack" was in motion.
What many people don't realize is that most of the applications, e.g.
SNORT and frameworks, e.g. Django or Ruby-on-Rails, also have support
for PostgreSQL and even commercial DBMS's like MSSQL Server and Oracle,
it's just "cheap and easy" to use MySQL, so they choose that when
installing the LAMP Stack, and don't look back...until they slam into
perform and/or stability issues.

There's basically two styles of Open Source development and application
deployment: Packaged and Built. The former where one uses a combination
of RPM (RedHat, SuSE) or Ports (BSD) or Portage (Gentoo) or Deb's
(Debian) and the latter is where one builds some or all of those
applications from source. If you're sold on the former, either as a
personal preference or because your organization requires the support,
then you're going to automatically be channeled towards not only certain
versions of applications but certain applications amongst other valid,
or even preferable, choices. For example, the Eclipse IDE goes through
development periods where if you're only using whatever your
distribution of choice provides you are *seriously* behind on features.
Accordingly, this is one of the applications I don't install via the
distro, but install in /opt.

I'm personally in an environment where I use stuff we build from source
(inclusive of custom development), commercially supported Open Source
applications, and Microsoft, Oracle, and niche, fully commercial
applications, because I'd like to think I'm "using the best tool for the
job". This, of course, doesn't come without risks, and I have the scars
to prove it from *all* of the aforementioned, including the fully
"supported", fully commercial applications.

If LAMP suits you then you might not benefit from INGRES. I have
first-hand knowledge that many of the large organizations that use MySQL
use it in a very specific, almost embedded, fashion (even limiting it to
read-only data stores), and they use Oracle or MSSQL Server for the
"real" work. The "free" versions of Oracle and MSSQL Server don't scale
beyond very small utilizations, e.g. 4GB user data, 1 CPU, 1GB RAM, etc.
MySQL is commercially supported but lacks much of the features,
performance, and stability that even PostgreSQL offers, but PostgreSQL
doesn't have a unified commercial support model (yes, I know about
Greenplum, but that doesn't count).

If you want an Open Source DBMS that is truly *enterprise* class, runs
on VMS, GNU/Linux, and nearly all popular platforms in-between, *and*
offers unified commercial support, you're not going to find a better
solution than INGRES. If that package doesn't meet the project
scenario, well then you'll have to look elsewhere, but you'll do the
same for the other options as well depending on the project requirements.

In my experience, I wouldn't waste my time with MySQL for any serious
project because for a comparable price I can get MSSQL Server, which
offers much more than MySQL in all categories, even with all of the
MySQL's 3rd party add-ons. So, in that sense, I'm not "down on MySQL"
vs. INGRES, I'm down on it period because I think it's a poor excuse for
a DBMS. There, I said it.

If Ingres Corporation, or another entity, would sponsor the integration
of INGRES into the popular applications and frameworks that use MySQL
then INGRES would have a fighting chance at intercepting those looking
to move from MySQL to something like MSSQL Server or Oracle when they
needed to do "real" work. Most of the very popular and commercially
competitive Open Source projects have sponsorship, directly or
indirectly. INGRES currently only has Ingres Corporation, which quite
frankly, hasn't figured out what it wants to do when it grows up.
Icebreaker?! Please.

P.S. I'd bet a paycheck that if Ingres Corporation would put serious
effort towards sponsoring an Open Source project that provided an App
Server environment with OpenROAD and INGRES DBMS, INGRES market share
would *double* within 18 months of that release, inclusive of
significant commercial support contracts from people looking for
alternatives to JBOSS, WebSphere, WebLogic, etc. Pay attention to MSSQL
Server's market share; it's growing not because people think that MSSQL
is the coolest DBMS ever, but because of the integration with .NET and
the massive utility it provides for application development. To make a
bad turn on a phrase, "It's the Applications, stupid!"

***
Mark R. Winston
***

Quote:

An example would be to load the mysql extensions to perl or php.
Because you didn't de-select them, the install whines about the
missing mysql. Thus the ASSumption that they're required.

#25

On Jan 17, 10:33 pm, Jerry Stuckle <jstuck... (AT) attglobal (DOT) net> wrote:

Quote:

toby wrote:
On Jan 16, 12:36 pm, Jerry Stuckle <jstuck... (AT) attglobal (DOT) net> wrote:
toby wrote:
On Jan 16, 8:10 am, Jerry Stuckle <jstuck... (AT) attglobal (DOT) net> wrote:
Willem Bogaerts wrote:
how about this bunch, they should be enthusiastic......
Well, I actually took the effort and looked at the site, curious as to
what the differences are with other databases. Other than some hollow
market speak, I found exactly 1 thing: Kerberos authentication. Can't
say I ever needed it, but it could be useful. What's the big hype?
So my enthusiasm was gone pretty fast.
Best regards,
I wouldn't say that, Willem. I used Ingres several years ago, and it's
a decent RDBMS. Like any other RDBMS, depending on what you're doing,
it may perform better or worse than others.
It's a very nice system, full featured, and well documented. I threw
it on to my Gentoo system a couple of years ago. The installation was
not difficult, but MySQL is going to be a simpler option for
inexperienced users.
True. I used Ingres for some non-web based apps; it worked nicely. But
when I needed a database for websites on shared hosts, most had MySQL,
so I went there. Now I'm using VPS's, but I load Debian on them which
requires MySQL.

I'm not sure I understand why Debian "requires MySQL"?

Well, Debian itself doesn't require MySQL, but it does assume MySQL is
installed. And there are a lot of packages which will prereq that.

Basically you can't do a whole lot with the Debian packages unless you
have MySQL installed.

This is one situation where Gentoo's Portage shines - if you don't ask
for 'mysql' support as a USE flag, the package logic (ebuild) won't
build it in or require the server. If you know that your default
database is going to be MySQL you just set that flag globally, or
'postgres' or whatever you happen to use.

Binary distributions simply aren't capable of that kind of
flexibility, but then, not all users need it.

(There's not yet a Gentoo ebuild for Ingres, it seems.)

Quote:

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstuck... (AT) attglobal (DOT) net
==================

#26

toby wrote:

Quote:

On Jan 17, 10:33 pm, Jerry Stuckle <jstuck... (AT) attglobal (DOT) net> wrote:
toby wrote:
On Jan 16, 12:36 pm, Jerry Stuckle <jstuck... (AT) attglobal (DOT) net> wrote:
toby wrote:
On Jan 16, 8:10 am, Jerry Stuckle <jstuck... (AT) attglobal (DOT) net> wrote:
Willem Bogaerts wrote:
how about this bunch, they should be enthusiastic......
Well, I actually took the effort and looked at the site, curious as to
what the differences are with other databases. Other than some hollow
market speak, I found exactly 1 thing: Kerberos authentication. Can't
say I ever needed it, but it could be useful. What's the big hype?
So my enthusiasm was gone pretty fast.
Best regards,
I wouldn't say that, Willem. I used Ingres several years ago, and it's
a decent RDBMS. Like any other RDBMS, depending on what you're doing,
it may perform better or worse than others.
It's a very nice system, full featured, and well documented. I threw
it on to my Gentoo system a couple of years ago. The installation was
not difficult, but MySQL is going to be a simpler option for
inexperienced users.
True. I used Ingres for some non-web based apps; it worked nicely. But
when I needed a database for websites on shared hosts, most had MySQL,
so I went there. Now I'm using VPS's, but I load Debian on them which
requires MySQL.
I'm not sure I understand why Debian "requires MySQL"?
Well, Debian itself doesn't require MySQL, but it does assume MySQL is
installed. And there are a lot of packages which will prereq that.

Basically you can't do a whole lot with the Debian packages unless you
have MySQL installed.

This is one situation where Gentoo's Portage shines - if you don't ask
for 'mysql' support as a USE flag, the package logic (ebuild) won't
build it in or require the server. If you know that your default
database is going to be MySQL you just set that flag globally, or
'postgres' or whatever you happen to use.

Binary distributions simply aren't capable of that kind of
flexibility, but then, not all users need it.

(There's not yet a Gentoo ebuild for Ingres, it seems.)

Yes, that is a definite advantage. Unfortunately, it's not available on
my VPS provider.

I do like Debian; it's not always the latest, but it is more stable than
some of the other distros. And it's recent enough for the things I need.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex (AT) attglobal (DOT) net
==================

#27

On Jan 18, 8:29 pm, Jerry Stuckle <jstuck... (AT) attglobal (DOT) net> wrote:

Quote:

toby wrote:
On Jan 17, 10:33 pm, Jerry Stuckle <jstuck... (AT) attglobal (DOT) net> wrote:
toby wrote:
On Jan 16, 12:36 pm, Jerry Stuckle <jstuck... (AT) attglobal (DOT) net> wrote:
toby wrote:
On Jan 16, 8:10 am, Jerry Stuckle <jstuck... (AT) attglobal (DOT) net> wrote:
Willem Bogaerts wrote:
how about this bunch, they should be enthusiastic......
Well, I actually took the effort and looked at the site, curious as to
what the differences are with other databases. Other than some hollow
market speak, I found exactly 1 thing: Kerberos authentication. Can't
say I ever needed it, but it could be useful. What's the big hype?
So my enthusiasm was gone pretty fast.
Best regards,
I wouldn't say that, Willem. I used Ingres several years ago, and it's
a decent RDBMS. Like any other RDBMS, depending on what you're doing,
it may perform better or worse than others.
It's a very nice system, full featured, and well documented. I threw
it on to my Gentoo system a couple of years ago. The installation was
not difficult, but MySQL is going to be a simpler option for
inexperienced users.
True. I used Ingres for some non-web based apps; it worked nicely. But
when I needed a database for websites on shared hosts, most had MySQL,
so I went there. Now I'm using VPS's, but I load Debian on them which
requires MySQL.
I'm not sure I understand why Debian "requires MySQL"?
Well, Debian itself doesn't require MySQL, but it does assume MySQL is
installed. And there are a lot of packages which will prereq that.

Basically you can't do a whole lot with the Debian packages unless you
have MySQL installed.

This is one situation where Gentoo's Portage shines - if you don't ask
for 'mysql' support as a USE flag, the package logic (ebuild) won't
build it in or require the server. If you know that your default
database is going to be MySQL you just set that flag globally, or
'postgres' or whatever you happen to use.

Binary distributions simply aren't capable of that kind of
flexibility, but then, not all users need it.

(There's not yet a Gentoo ebuild for Ingres, it seems.)

Yes, that is a definite advantage. Unfortunately, it's not available on
my VPS provider.

I thought I'd mention an example:

[ebuild U ] dev-lang/php-5.2.8-r1 [5.2.6-r7] USE="apache2 berkdb
bzip2* calendar cgi cli crypt ctype curl force-cgi-redirect gd gdbm
iconv json kerberos ldap mysql mysqli ncurses pcre posix readline
reflection session spell spl ssl suhosin truetype unicode xml xsl zlib
-adabas -bcmath -birdstep -cdb -cjk -concurrentmodphp -curlwrappers -
db2 -dbase -dbmaker -debug -discard-path -doc -empress -empress-bcs -
esoob -exif -fastbuild -fdftk -filter -firebird -flatfile -frontbase -
ftp -gd-external -gmp -hash -imap -inifile -interbase -iodbc -ipv6 (-
java-external) -kolab -ldap-sasl -libedit -mcve -mhash -msql -mssql -
nls -oci8 -oci8-instant-client -odbc -pcntl -pdo -pic -postgres -qdbm -
recode -sapdb -sharedext -sharedmem -simplexml -snmp -soap -sockets -
solid -sqlite -sybase -sybase-ct -sysvipc -threads -tidy -tokenizer -
wddx -xmlreader -xmlrpc -xmlwriter -xpm -yaz -zip -zip-external" 9,633
kB

I recognise quite a number of optional RDBMS client libraries in
there: mysql[i], adabas, db2, dbase, firebird, interbase, msql, mssql,
postgres, sapdb, solid, sqlite, sybase, ...

Quote:

I do like Debian; it's not always the latest, but it is more stable than
some of the other distros. And it's recent enough for the things I need.

Before Gentoo I was firmly a Debian man as well.

Quote:

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstuck... (AT) attglobal (DOT) net
==================