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IDS on a Mac?
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#51
 
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Re: IDS on a Mac? -
11-05-2007
, 09:36 PM
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In article <1194282020.357800 (AT) bubbleator (DOT) drizzle.com>, DA Morgan says... dice.com monster.com hotjobs.com Sybase 2,146 304 548 Informix 343 43 173 Windows SysAdmin 2443 2955 751 Solaris SysAdmin 1223 930 321 |
The correlation exists. It is not the quality of the product, alone,
that makes a product successful. And especially not the quality of
a product 20 years ago.
--
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
www.psoug.org
#52
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DA Morgan wrote: Ian Michael Gumby wrote: From: DA Morgan <damorgan (AT) psoug (DOT) org [SNIP] Sigh. This is a design issue that shows that while there are general concepts which are the same across different platforms, there some subtle differences which will impact performance. The implementation of Temp tables in Oracle is wrong. Ugly, inefficient and barely supports the idea of the "INTO TEMP" clause that I believe is part of the SQL standard. This is the most preposterous statement I've heard in quite awhile not because, quite simply, there is no basis in fact. Allow me to prove it. 1. On what version of Oracle did you test Oracle's temp tables? 2. Which temp table types did you test? 3. With what tool did you gather the metrics? 4. Post the test design, the DDL, the DML, and the results. Your statement has as much basis in fact as saying swordfish is better than salmon. You think what Informix does, is better. Put up the test case. Now when I say "WRONG", I'm talking from a purely design perspective. And purely from the perspective of someone who doesn't work with undo segments and undo tablespaces and doesn't understand the architecture underlying MVRC and has no actual basis for the opinion other than that he likes blue more than red. (In truth there is no right or wrong, its a question about how to interpret the requirements and does the solution meet the stated goals. ) Closer to the facts but a waffle given the above rant. However, as a developer if I want to KISS (that's an engineering term), I want to have my temp tables defined dynamically and be unique in that I don't incur overhead or issues from other implementations. Which means you don't want to write code the creates and drops them on-the-fly. Far better to create them, index them, constrain them, and let them take care of themselves forever. But that would conflict with your overriding prejudice against anything non-Informix. The example I've used is that you can not create an index on a temp table if the table has data anywhere. Of course not. Buiding indexes on-the-fly in a production database is not just silly it is counterproductive adding unnecessary overhead. If you design systems rather than just throw them over the cubicle wall then you design your table, you design your indexes, you build them during schema creation, and you leave them alone for all to use and for the life of the application. Complaining that an implementation doesn't let you create objects that the optimizer might want to know about any time you feel like it is the very core of bad practice. That is even if I trunc my data, a different user could still have data in the temp table. So I can't create an index. While this may seem like a small nit, its not. When you're doing some computations on a subset, or need to create a functional index on the subset. So creating and dropping indexes on subsets is not possible. Nor should it be. Do you think creating and dropping objects has no cost? An example? Suppose I have a field where the value is a bitmask and I only want to select a certain portion for processing. I can't easily do this with Oracle's temp tables. Hence the issue. Sure you can. Of course provided you know how. If you have a problem why don't you tell us about it in the Oracle usenet group and we will help you solve it. The "right" solution allows the developer a lot of freedom and still conforms to the spec. Hence the preference for IDS. So far you've not given a single example of this but I doubt that will stop you ... you're on a roll. On a completely different topic, is the extensibility issue. (Don't get me started on Oracle's "extensibility....". And to keep this issue simple, lets talk about Sybase's adaptive server. Why not other than, it would seem, the fact that you know nothing about it with respect to any currently supported version of the product. Its extensible, however, they didn't fence in the user/developer's code so that if there is ineffcient code, it will kill the performance of the entire database. Note that even if the code looks clean, it can still be inefficient. Explaining, it would seem, why it is that Sybase is currently outselling Informix by a wide margin. And why Sybase shops are looking for employees for real-work while Informix shops are not: dice.com monster.com hotjobs.com Sybase 2,146 304 548 Informix 343 43 173 jobs available as of 5 November, 2007. Back on that soapbox, Daniel? I was kinda wondering how long it would take . . . . Some more noteworthy quotes . . . You are presiding over a funeral so it is understandable that you would praise the departed. Just like WordStar, just like Lotus 123, just like Borland Pascal. And this somehow trumps the fact that not a single college or university on the planet offers a single class for Informix. The next generation of developers and DBAs is coming from where? Apparently the same place new sales are coming from? The tooth fairy. More value-added blather for c.d.i. JWC |
I won't. Funny thing no one in the DB2, Oracle, SQL Server, and Sybase
forums ever brings up Informix. I guess people with real products to
work with don't feel compelled to bash products they don't know.
What is interesting here is that my posts are almost always with
respect to clearing up FUD about Oracle posted by people who haven't
used a currently supported version. If you folks had real work to do
you wouldn't be spending so much time focusing on the make-believe
faults of a product that has the lion's share of the marketplace.
--
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
Puget Sound Oracle Users Group
www.psoug.org
#53
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If you choose to discuss Oracle here ... then I will post. If you don't I won't. Funny thing no one in the DB2, Oracle, SQL Server, and Sybase forums ever brings up Informix. |
You're actually wrong - I find 2,610 results searching for "Informix"
in C.D.O.S, as well as the interesting fact that whenever the word is
raised, your name is right there in the frame, every time.
Pavlov would be proud, the way your kneejerk kicks in as soon it is
mentioned.
Methinks the man protests too much. Looks like you're scared, Dan.
And all I can find is your pretentious, self-aggrandising, overblown
rhetoric and spurious highly selective 'statistics', and hiding behind
NDAs whenever you're questioned.
Fuck off, Dan. You're a troll.
!PLONK!
#54
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You're actually wrong - I find 2,610 results searching for "Informix" in C.D.O.S, as well as the interesting fact that whenever the word is raised, your name is right there in the frame, every time. Pavlov would be proud, the way your kneejerk kicks in as soon it is mentioned. Methinks the man protests too much. Looks like you're scared, Dan. And all I can find is your pretentious, self-aggrandising, overblown rhetoric and spurious highly selective 'statistics', and hiding behind NDAs whenever you're questioned. Fuck off, Dan. You're a troll. |
3 yrs back he lied that Microsoft runs its internal SAP
on Oracle and not SQL Server, despite MS employees
clarifying. He even came up with conspiracy theories
to stick to his point and ended up looking like a big
fool. I lost all respect for him. To err is human but
not admitting your mistake is really bad.
#55
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On Nov 6, 6:20 am, i... (AT) perrior (DOT) net wrote: You're actually wrong - I find 2,610 results searching for "Informix" in C.D.O.S, as well as the interesting fact that whenever the word is raised, your name is right there in the frame, every time. Pavlov would be proud, the way your kneejerk kicks in as soon it is mentioned. Methinks the man protests too much. Looks like you're scared, Dan. And all I can find is your pretentious, self-aggrandising, overblown rhetoric and spurious highly selective 'statistics', and hiding behind NDAs whenever you're questioned. Fuck off, Dan. You're a troll. dan is a dishonest academician. 3 yrs back he lied that Microsoft runs its internal SAP on Oracle and not SQL Server, despite MS employees clarifying. He even came up with conspiracy theories to stick to his point and ended up looking like a big fool. I lost all respect for him. To err is human but not admitting your mistake is really bad. |
and that mine will the last post in this thread.
Not!
#56
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From: DA Morgan <damorgan (AT) psoug (DOT) org You are a fool wrote: In article <1194282020.357800 (AT) bubbleator (DOT) drizzle.com>, DA Morgan says... dice.com monster.com hotjobs.com Sybase 2,146 304 548 Informix 343 43 173 Windows SysAdmin 2443 2955 751 Solaris SysAdmin 1223 930 321 And the sales of Windows are far greater than those of Solaris. The correlation exists. It is not the quality of the product, alone, that makes a product successful. And especially not the quality of a product 20 years ago. |
You always like to trot out what jobs you find on dice dot com.
Unfortunately those numbers are skewed because you'll find that for every
posting, there are N companies posting about the same job. I know the
Chicago market and I've literally get 5 calls for the same project
routinely. (Not that I'm leaving my current gig. I'm working on the worlds
largest geo spatial database... ;-)
But whats worse is your analogy.
When we talk about IDS being superior to Oracle, DB2, Sybase, SQLServer,
MySQL, Postgress/Ingres, Progress, etc ... (Oh and lets not forget
JavaDB/Derby (RIP cloudscape) ...)
What we're talking about is the quality of the product.
Try comparing a Porsche Cayman to a Ford Focus. Doesn't work does it. But
there are a lot more Ford Focuses on the road than there are Porsches.
__________________________________________________ _______________
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http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotma...M_mini_2G_0507
#57
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From: iiug (AT) perrior (DOT) net Methinks the man protests too much. Looks like you're scared, Dan. And all I can find is your pretentious, self-aggrandising, overblown rhetoric and spurious highly selective 'statistics', and hiding behind NDAs whenever you're questioned. Fuck off, Dan. You're a troll. !PLONK! Don't blame him. He's been brain washed. |
I see it all the time. Someone learns Oracle, becomes an "expert" in oracle,
even drinks the cool-aid.
So they believe that Oracle is the best despite all the facts. After all, it
pays their bills.
Do it enough times, and you'll get yourself an army of evangelists.
Oh I do work with a lot of different databases and I'll bash Oracle a lot on
their design.
The truth is I can make most anything work on any platform, but will it work
well?
Take timeseries for example. I can cobble something together on any database
that supports blobs.
But it wouldn't be as efficient unless I have a certain amount of
extensibility ...
But hey, what can I say? I'll drink a lot of things, but I won't drink a
company's cool-aid.
-G
__________________________________________________ _______________
Make distant family not so distant with Windows Vista® + Windows Live™.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/dig...tfamily_102007
#58
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From: DA Morgan <damorgan (AT) psoug (DOT) org John Carlson wrote: DA Morgan wrote: Ian Michael Gumby wrote: [SNIP] If you design systems rather than just throw them over the cubicle wall then you design your table, you design your indexes, you build them during schema creation, and you leave them alone for all to use and for the life of the application. Complaining that an implementation doesn't let you create objects that the optimizer might want to know about any time you feel like it is the very core of bad practice. [SNIP] |
I'm going to step in here because Daniel is yet again talking out of his ass
and doesn't grok
what it means to be an app developer, let alone how to maintain data quality
on a very large datawarehouse...
Caveat. I can't talk directly what I'm working on. That would be a
violation of my NDA.
What I can say is that I'm working on *the* *largest* geo spatial database
in the world.
Part of the problem is that we take in data from third parties which may or
may not be correct, along with continual enhancement to our model.
So now I have to write a script that will allow me to check a field in one
table and decide if I need to create ancillary data in another table.
Only its not that simple. To get the rows in the one table that need to be
updated, I have to do a couple of table joins to get the data. And then I
need to store them in a temp table.
Now the fun part. If you join against the temp table, and you have over
10,000 rows. You're pretty much screwed. (And before Daniel opens his mouth,
there's about a million rows in the base table and my temp table has around
150,000 rows, based on the data I want to update.
So my query goes to shit unless I can index my temp table.
What that means is that I need to create a GLOBAL TEMP table and then drop
it at the end of my python script. (Why Python? Cause I have to do some
processing that is easier in a scripting language than in PL/SQL) The
reason I can't use an existing GLOBAL TEMP table is that I need to create
the index. But I can't create an index because someone else may have data in
that temp table. (Yes, even if my data set is blank, I can't create the
index.) So I have to create the table, create the index and then do my work.
Oh and Daniel, depending on the data I'm updating to fit the new model, That
index will change.
A real life case daniel of "not throwing some design over the wall".
The model changes and you have to either populate the data or change/cleanse
it.
REAL LIFE BABY!
With Informix, I can create the table on the fly and when I exit, it all
goes away.
Oh and if I'm trying to run a couple of these scripts in parallel, I have to
pass in a unique global temp table so that when I need to create a different
index, I can, and at the end, I can delete the table.
Oh and to make matters worse....
The statements to create and drop the table are auto commits, so I have to
make sure that I want to commit the changes prior to droping the tables.
Quote:
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An example? Suppose I have a field where the value is a bitmask and I only want to select a certain portion for processing. I can't easily do this with Oracle's temp tables. Hence the issue. Sure you can. Of course provided you know how. If you have a problem why don't you tell us about it in the Oracle usenet group and we will help you solve it. |
You just want to shoot your mouth off instead of reading what was written.
YOU CAN NOT CREATE AN INDEX ON A TEMP TABLE THAT ALREADY HAS DATA.
SINCE ORACLE CREATES GLOBAL TEMP TABLES AND YOU CAN'T CONTROL WHAT OTHER
USER IS USING THIS GLOBAL TEMP TABLE, IT IS VERY LIKELY THAT THERE IS
ALREADY DATA WITHIN THE TEMP TABLE.
THIS IS WHAT FORCES YOU TO CREATE AND DROP "GLOBAL TEMP TABLES" on the fly.
THERE IS NO "WORK AROUND" other than doing what I am doing.
I'm sitting next to a guy who's written a couple of Oracle books and another
guy who's an ex-Oracle developer. You don't think I stop by to pick there
brains?
Quote:
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On a completely different topic, is the extensibility issue. (Don't get me started on Oracle's "extensibility....". And to keep this issue simple, lets talk about Sybase's adaptive server. Why not other than, it would seem, the fact that you know nothing about it with respect to any currently supported version of the product. Really daniel? Client is on 9i. It takes a lot to move to the next |
Unlike Informix which is a lot simpler.
Quote:
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Explaining, it would seem, why it is that Sybase is currently outselling Informix by a wide margin. And why Sybase shops are looking for employees for real-work while Informix shops are not: dice.com monster.com hotjobs.com Sybase 2,146 304 548 Informix 343 43 173 jobs available as of 5 November, 2007. |
from their jobs and are trying to work with new technology. Hence the demand
for sybase DBAs.
Of course I just love how you toss out a meaningless and irrelevant fact to
try and strengthen your case. I mean, heck here in Chicago, I'll get 5
calls about the same job. So when there's one opening you can get 5 - 10
companies posting on the boards looking for bodies.
Informix shops don't really do that. Why? Cause they don't need an army to
keep things afloat.
Keep dreaming Daniel.
-G
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#59
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#60
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On Oct 18, 2:20 pm, "Guy ." <gbower... (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote: I hope they release a free Express version and put it out at all the Universities. Once available the Mac port is planned to be one of the free Developer Edition platforms. Guy ----- Original Message ---- From: "Gentsch, Samuel" <SAM_GENT... (AT) homedepot (DOT) com To: Guy . <gbower... (AT) yahoo (DOT) com>; John Carlson <jwcarls... (AT) yahoo (DOT) com.invalid>; informix-l... (AT) iiug (DOT) org Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 5:08:27 AM Subject: RE: IDS on a Mac? Anything come of this? It was announced at IOD this week that a Mac port of IDS is in progress, targeted for the next point release of Cheetah expected next year. Regards Guy Woo Wooo! That rocks.... I hope they release a free Express version and put it out at all the Universities. I have been reading about many College stores selling more Macs than PCs. It would be interesting to prime the waters with IDS at that low level. Too bad it is not feasible to con Apple to install it in Leopard as a default software, like perl. Sam __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection aroundhttp://mail.yahoo.com I agree with Mr. Sam..... wee hoo! (and most excellent). Sam is one of the reasons I looked into picking up a Mac in the first place. He'd always drag his around the IIUG board meetings and rave about it. Now I'm hooked....glad to hear IDS is heading towards OS/X. Mark.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - |
Nice to see you are still keeping things stirred up! ;-)
John
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